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Author Topic: BE Stories & South Park  (Read 1177 times)
Leviathan
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« on: January 16, 2002, 11:45:00 PM »

Some may think it's really obvious, but I was listening to South Park this afternoon and realized that the plot is a lot like your average BE story. Senseless. Spontaneous. Unrealistic. Etc...

I'm not making a cut at South Park or BE Stories. (Well, perhaps I am...) But anyway, it just struck me as interesting. You could probably watch an episode of the Simpsons or Southpark and get a new plot for a BE story every week... But more than that, what I'm getting at is that I think BE stories are at their best when they reach that same level of "stupid cartoon sitcom".

So what can we learn from it? Well, I think maybe the moral of the story is that you shouldn't try to take yourself or your stories too seriously when you are writing BE material. To do so would contradict the nature of the subject.

In some ways, this is what has always bothered me about some of the more "serious" types of authors out their, like Plato or Al. It seems that once you get to a certain level of writing, your material is contradicting itself. You've got two forces working against each other in the story. I think Al once called it "Irony", but when I think about it, it doesn't seem like the kind of irony that helps a story. Or at least, it's not all that fun to read the irony after one or two stories. I mean, yeah. We get it -- irony. Ha ha. A "serious BE story". It's an oxymoron. Woo hoo. I think maybe that's why I don't enjoy reading those kinds of stories any more. Even though I know they are good, as in well-written, interesting characters, solid plot, etc.. after the first few, I start getting the feeling that the author is sitting next to me, jabbing me in the ribs. "A serious BE story. Get it?"

*poke* *poke*

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Leviathan
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« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2002, 12:09:00 AM »

I think the same might be said for porn fiction in general (except perhaps for the more unpleasant type...)
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Adama, Addventure mega-geek
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« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2002, 05:58:00 AM »

I'm not sure that I agree Leviathan - in fact I think that you've fainted in one lecture too many. Tongue

I think that BE stories can function at several levels. Depending on the reaction of characters and the type of BE these can be more or less credible.

For example - if you had multiple rapid BEs and all the characters were unphased and had some sort of depth - then I can see the two forces (let's call them the light and the dark sides, in which case they are simply aspects of the same single force) clashing, as no matter how well written the story is the credible nature of the story is detracting from the non-credible nature of the story.

However, so long as one makes reasonable estimations of a characters reaction - or just write so badly that it doesn't matter - everythings just fine. Although that feeling does occur sometimes and rest assured if *any* BE author is sitting next to me poking *me* in ribs, then I've got a prediction "Pain!"

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Fret Pearson
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« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2002, 07:18:00 AM »

I can't say I agree.  Sure, a lot of BE pieces aren't serious, and most are wank stories, but just because a story has BE doesn't make it frivolous.  I don't think there's a necessary oxymoron.

I know some people prefer serious, grounded stories because it makes the BE scenes more "real" by comparison.  And others prefer tongue in cheek "sit-coms."  Viva la difference, man!  I enjoy a good comedy, but when it comes to my fetishes I like a bit of realism.

I especially need to read about realistic characters or I find stories get dull real quick.  I try in my own stories to make all the main characters ring true, despite whatever silly things are happening to them.

By the way, Plato may be serious (not sure really - where the hell is he?) but his stories sure aren't!  And where the hell is Bad Irving?  Did he go off to fight terrorists and visit 3rd rate foreign strip clubs again?

Fret

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Leviathan
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« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2002, 11:24:00 AM »

Hmm.. perhaps serious was not quite the word I was looking for... it's difficult to explain. It's like, some authors try to write their stories as if the world that the characters live in accept the events around them as natural. I'm not saying the stories themselves are serious, but the mood of the story is such that it tries to make the reader believe that everything that is happening is "normal" through the reactions of the characters.

I don't know what you would call it, but the point still stands. I think it's a form of irony that is only good for a few reads before it gets old.

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Leviathan
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« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2002, 12:25:00 PM »

Or possibly a form of irony so lame that only Al appreciates it?
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RaoulDuke
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« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2002, 01:00:00 PM »

I think that the main tension Leviathan is attempting to express is this: physically deforming women into some kind of male fantasy would be an unkind thing to do in this world. Therefore, any BE story must be predicated on one of two assumptions:

(a) the woman in question is being violated or hurt in some way
(b) the laws of reality are sufficiently different that women value radically different things than they do in reality

The majority of the BE genre falls into category B. I tend not to enjoy most BE stories because of this.

While I believe most BE writers have an unconscious hatred of women, only those who write in category A acknowledge this to any degree. There are a very few deft writers like Fret Pearson who manage to bridge these categories to some degree and produce stories in which we can credibly believe that women in their right minds might eventually come to enjoy very large and sensitive breasts.

Fret is the only author I have seen who writes in both categories. Addiction falls clearly into category A whereas his wishing rock stories fall into category B.

My favourite BE stories are the ones where the surrealist elements are minimal. However, I find that surreality exists in inverse proportion to darkness/malevolence. Coeds To Cumsluts is an excellent example of a nearly straight take on BE. It is particularly useful as it chronicles a transformation driven by women's self-hatred (the prime motivator behind all surgical real world BE).

Anyway, that's my two cents.

Raoul.

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I could never be a woman. I'd just sit at home all day and play with my breasts. -- Steve Martin
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« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2002, 06:52:00 PM »

Well, i admit I read it to get off on  

I write it largely to see the story go on, at the Addventure. *slight shrug and scratches his head*

I don't write BE for a reason: I'm horrid at it   I have too much of a conscience telling me to write in a 'happy' ending where the women involved don't need to STAY that way.
That's just me, though. I know i'm weird  

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Blake Isaac Gordon
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« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2002, 07:52:00 PM »

Man AT LAST! Something to talk about…

First I will admit that most BE stories are cut from the same cardboard. And I think I agree with Mr. Big Fish (Leviathan please get some sleep you poor fool, I had to read your first post twice to get a full understanding on it.)  

Now what I’m going to saw would probably piss off A LOT o’women. (Which explains my current eternal single status.)

BUT! Women can be REALLY stupid creatures sometimes- over very silly things (sorta like the English. {Sniker}) What do I base this upon?

Simple: I work at a place where there are quite a few young (24-27 year old) professional women who are very pretty. Unfortunately, these young women base their whole self worth on getting married. (Note I’m am not saying marriage is a bad thing, but it can be if the young woman is willing to put security before trust… But I sooo digress)

So let me give a simple believable BE setting… Please note: it’s fantasy, but I bet the mechanics of how the female’s mind would react WOULD be dead on…

Setting: When a man and woman get into a relationship the male unit produces pheromones that stimulate the female’s breasts to grow. The more emotional connection the larger the beasts become. AND if the relationship ends the breast mass goes with it. So… Man + Woman + Love = DDD cup sizes…

Now as you all think about this for a minute try to think like a woman. Thier utmost feverish need not to be alone can make a woman do some loopy things. Plus once they have tasted the security of a good relationship they often became more possessive than wild badgers.

So in this imaginary society all women are flat chested… (Triple A-- Baby!)
Then they get into a relationship. The first X amount of time the woman experiences growth. A little ++ cup size here and a little there…

But now there are questions:

1.   How does the young woman in love react when she stops growing? (No development = their love is not growing= total panic)
2.   How does her female friends react? (Gee Shery… Your new boyfriend must treat you pretty well… You sure are getting big!)
3.   How do other men react? (Good lordy did you see the size of that girl…Shesh… Her man sure is one lucky Son-of-a-…)
4.   What happens when this couple breaks up? (What! Tony you say you don’t love me any more…(pssssssst) What will I do with all these HUGE bras I had to wear for YOU!)
5.   Do women wear grossly padded bras when they just want to be left alone? (Tiffy how do you ever expect to get over John if you never take off that enhancer bra?)

BE can work if you just take the female’s desire into mind. Men like Big boobies because they feel nice. Women might put up with big boobies because they keep their man’s attention right where they want it.

It’s a shame that many authors don’t play with this theme.

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Breasts grow - that's BE... what happens after that is irrelevant.
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Leviathan
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« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2002, 08:58:00 PM »

That's hilarious, Blake! Man o man, that would be a rough world to live in though!

In reply to Raoul:

As far as BE stories reflecting a hatred of women, I've always believed that that's part of the equation, but I don't know if "hatred" is quite the right word. It's much to strong to describe the BE genre, which is mostly written by people who are on the whole probably just a bunch of harmless computer nerds (not your typical gansta/hate-crime individuals). I do think many of the MC stories out there display quite a bit of contempt for humans in general, but... I think _fear_ of women is the underlying theme of many BE stories, especially stories where the women become sluts or bimbos. It's symbolizing a shift in power (which is a concept that you have hit upon a few times in previous posts).

(I think, deep down, many "smarter" and "not so good-looking" guys realize at some point that entering into a relationship with a female will ultimately be a lot of trouble, that women in general are frustrating and difficult to deal with. I think these men fear that women will not respect them because, well, they're men and all they want is sex. So these men allow themselves to enter into shallow, voyeuristic lifestyles. Porn, strip clubs, etc... so they can have the act of love, at their own convenience, without the problems and pain that comes with real love.)

Drawing a parralel to BE stories, it can be seen that many men basically feel that the "solution" to the woman delimma is to just have a woman who embodies this ideality of fulfilling the act of love, without needing to put real love into the equation. The very act of BE might symbolize this.

(And this is not even considering the fact that women as well have just as many psychological problems and fears as men do... I remember Dave Sim putting it this way in Cerebus: (paraphrasing) "All women want to be raped by handsome doctors." I think it's one of the most profound statements I've ever heard. Whether it's true or not, I may never know...)

But I suppose I've gotten off on a wild tangeant... back to what we were talking about. Raoul, you say that BE stories can be based off of two recurring themes:

(a) the woman in question is being violated or hurt in some way
(b) the laws of reality are sufficiently different that women value radically different things than they do in reality

Whether or not what you are saying is true doesn't correlate well to the original topic of discussion. I think you are turning it more into a "psychological" theme to BE stories, while what I was talking about was more of a "physical setting" theme.

I was trying to say that BE stories, on the whole, work well within a universe similar to what you see on South Park or The Simpsons. Reality takes a back seat to situation comedy. The characters' very existence is a parody on humans and human emotions. On a subconscious level, it can even be said that the characters are aware that they are in a BE story, and so take everything they do or say with a grain of salt because they know it isn't real.

That's why in South Park when you see Kenny die or something like that, the next episode he's back alive like nothing happened. In the same way, we know that no matter how big the woman gets in the story, she'll be back to normal the next time we see her.

However, this physical setting that borders on the ridiculous, doesn't exist in some author's universes. Specifically I am talking about writers such as Al or Plato Voltaire (there are others, but I'm mentioning these two because their stories are such good examples of what I am trying to explain). In these writers' story universes, there exists a kind of "permanent irony" where all the characters seem to _believe_ that the world they live in actually exists. That when the story ends, they will still have huge breasts, they'll still be nimphomaniacs, the world as they know it will see them and respect them for who and what they are.

It's, to me, a great literary achievement to convey this kind of "surreality" or whatever you want to call it. It's the sign of a good writer at work. But at the same time, what I'm trying to say is that, when I think about it, it's not really the _best_ universe to tell a BE story in. It's a neat trick, which makes for a very interesting read five or six times, but on the seventh or eigth or maybe just the second time, eventually the reader sits back and says to himself, "I finally get it, and it's not all that exciting." Sure it's cleverly ironic, but does that make it the best example of the BE genre? The more I think about it, the less I am sure of it. I certainly don't see the need for a few 100 of such stories, in any case...

(But as those authors will probably tell you, none of the would make a difference. They write for their own enjoyment, as should all writers. And I'm not trying to "change the world". I'm not out to point fingers or criticize any more than normal. I'm just trying to find the words to describe a phenomenon that's puzzled and interested me for well over two years.)

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Leviathan
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« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2002, 11:04:00 PM »

Another interesting thread! I agree completely with Adama. I think there's something inherently contradictory about the idea of "serious" or "literary" pornography. It is -- afterall -- pornography.

I've read some very well-written stories in which BE is used metaphorically, but there was no sex in any of them. When the purpose of a story is to present a scene that arouses the reader's prurient interests, it's hard to imagine how that story can also speak to the reader on some intellectual level. Honestly, Coeds to Cumsluts is hardly a comment on the human condition.

At the risk of offending, I'll go Leviathan one better. Most BE stories I scan in the story archives are exactly like South Park: stupid, repetitive, and really boring. They have precisely the intellectual and artistic quality of a sit-com, and less originality. I submit that those qualities go with the territory of pornography. In a sense, they practically define it.

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Zorlond
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« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2002, 02:39:00 AM »

Actually, they do comment on the human condition. Unfortunately, the comment is neither insightfull nor origional. It's also not very complimentary, but that's hardly a surprise.
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« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2002, 06:39:00 AM »

Okay, then so to avoid future discomfort *everyone* must write two dimensional stories where the man and the woman love each other very much.

Personally I feel that you might be in grave danger of over-analysing the situation RaoulDuke. While your treatise is interesting I would suggest that it is flawed. Your deduction that writers have a hatred of women is based on your assumption that the writer perceives BE to be a deformation.

I would suggest that the average BE fan does *not* perceive it to be a negative change and hence does not harbour any "hatred" of women. Past the whole bitchness thing.

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JH_
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« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2002, 09:11:00 AM »

"BUT! Women can be REALLY stupid creatures sometimes- over very silly things (sorta like the English. {Sniker})"

Ahem!  

For "women" you could put "human beings". It's actually a pretty universal truth.

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JH
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« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2002, 05:30:00 PM »

Tenebrae, I would argue that a big breast fetish is not inherently misogynistic but a BE fetish is.

Raoul.

PS  I am overcome by how much I agree with everyone else's observations.

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Fret Pearson
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« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2002, 09:46:00 PM »

Well, now that you've stated your thoughts more clearly, Leviathan, I find myself agreeing.  Reality as we know it does take a back seat in many BE stories.  It also happens in TV (as you mentioned), movies, great works of literature, etc.

I disagree with your side comments about why people write BE fiction.  I don't think "fear of women" is the answer.  I would propose something more along the lines of "wanting to see boobs expanding before one's very eyes."  

You say that changing women into the embodiment of physical love is based on fear of or frustration with dealing with a real relationship.  Raoul says that it's an example of hatred of women.  I disagree on both counts.

Most of the BE stories I read finally end with the newly enlarged female happy at what happened.  Now of course there are stories that are cruel and demeaning to the heroines, and in some it's obvious that the author gets off on his malevolency.  But these are few and far between, especially in the BE genre.  (The MC genre is perhaps another story.)

Regarding BE as an act of evil/hatred is just wrong in my opinion.  Remember that many women share this fetish (some of whom post in the main forum) and there are female BE fiction writers.  And let's not forget writers like J.R. Parz who get more female fan mail than the Beatles.  All across the world there are young developing girls wondering how big their breasts are going to get, and hoping they are bigger than their mom but smaller than their Aunt Sally, etc.  BE is a common phenomenon, just annoyingly slow in it's natural state.

It's precisely because BE fiction usually takes place in an altered reality that it's not malevolent.  In real life if I injected my girlfriend with a virus that caused her breasts to swell to the size of a house over the period of a week (assuming she could constantly eat/drink to get that much mass into her body), killing her and me and a few neighbors and the captain of the police in the process... sure that would be evil.  But in a BE story she can enjoy the process because her skin won't tear and she doesn't have to suck on a garden hose of nutrients and the neighbors won't necessarily call the cops... and my girlfriend can enjoy the process.  I hope this is making sense.

Raoul, I appreciate the compliments about my stories.  My work always takes place from the female's POV.  That's because I have a bit of "breast envy."  I doubt this is a surprise to anyone who has read my single TG story.  Would I want to be a female forever?  No!  But I wouldn't mind being one for a short period to experience having breasts - preferrably big ones.

In every one of my stories, the girls are a bit hedonistic (they are usually students, after all).  They complain about their swelling chests, but in the end they always end up satisfied.  In the stories where they become bimbos, the same thing happens.  They wouldn't have wanted it beforehand, but they accept it and enjoy it when it happens and all is well that ends well.

Fret
« Last Edit: January 26, 2013, 12:22:52 AM by gonZo » Logged
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« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2002, 01:54:00 AM »

Wanted to mention this someplace, and even though I haven't really read this thread yet, this looks like a good place to mention it.

Recently in a web-mag I get  (roleplaying tips - aka RPGs, not bedroom stuff), they had a link to ... well bah .. I can't find the EXACT link .. so here's the rpg link: http://www.roleplayingtips.com/current_issue.html
issue 106 (current issue for 3 more days), reader's tip #1:
Build Great Stories Using A 31 Step Formula From Russian Folk-Tales
From: Dr Jerry Everard

now I'm not going to reprint the article ... go find it ... (ok ... it's here http://www.roleplayingtips.com/current_issue.html#r1  )

anyway ... ergo boobs ... what would be the 31 (if that many) steps of a BE-story?

I can see one of the first few steps is a female character will be introduced and her bra size will be listed before the paragraph is over (and normally before any other information about her is given).  Her bra size will then not be mentioned until after the BE is complete and someone pulls out a tape measure and knows the proper conversions.

-MW

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