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JigSaw

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Re: Should the ADDventure be restarted? Part 2
« Reply #30 on: June 01, 2002, 09:39:26 PM »
I feel that a lot would be lost and little would be gained by restarting the adventure.  If there were improvements made to the programe prehaps that would be reason anuff.

To restart the adventure just because it has become to large and cluttered is silly. I from time to time start at episode 2 and just wander around till i find something I like or maybe see something by an author (that may not have writing anthing in a year or more) that I like and then look them up on Adama's index to read some more of thier stuff.

Ill be among the first to say thier is a lot of crap episodes out there (hell I wrote some of it) but to throw out the good with the bad just to start over is silly.

If you feel strongly that you should restart, take an orphan thread start a heading that you like and restart within the adventure itself.

Just my 2 cents worth, I would not want to see it restarted, I for one would not come back if it was.  
Could somebody help me pick up my pieces I seem to be falling apart!

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Chuck

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Re: Should the ADDventure be restarted? Part 2
« Reply #31 on: June 01, 2002, 09:53:24 PM »
I agree with you, Jigsaw. If it's restarted, I'm gone.  

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Sencho

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Re: Should the ADDventure be restarted? Part 2
« Reply #32 on: June 01, 2002, 10:18:47 PM »
I think this is being approached from the wrong angle.  Those who are suggesting the Addventure be restarted, why?  If said reasons are "it's too cluttered", "it's too unweildy", or "it's too disjoined" then you're missing the point.  That's the nature behind an addventure.  If you want a simple, consistant, easy to follow story, go to MarkT's story archive.  
-Sencho

"What, Sir, would the people of the earth be without woman? They would be scarce, sir, almighty scarce." - Mark Twain, 1868.

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Chuck

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Re: Should the ADDventure be restarted?
« Reply #33 on: September 28, 2012, 12:28:21 AM »
Looks like the ADDventure has outlived the participation of all those who were calling for it to be scrapped/restarted. In 2002 I said I "hoped it would run for another 5 years". How about 10 more years and still going strong?!

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Adama

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Re: Should the ADDventure be restarted?
« Reply #34 on: September 29, 2012, 04:52:24 AM »
Looking back, it sounds like two separate arguments -- "it's too full, and should be restarted with new content" and "the software needs to be better"

The first one could be easily fixed by me just starting up a "game2" Addventure (the current one is "game1").

For the second one, while I can make some improvements, the biggest improvement would be throwing out the current software and writing (or borrowing) a new engine for a new Addventure.  That isn't going to happen unless somebody _other_ than me wants to put in the work... and then they might as well just host it themselves.
Adama, Addventure mega-geek

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Jack

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Re: Should the ADDventure be restarted?
« Reply #35 on: September 30, 2012, 02:11:16 AM »
The first one could be easily fixed by me just starting up a "game2" Addventure (the current one is "game1").

As stated earlier in the thread, it wouldn't accomplish much at this point. It's already been done a thousand times over with restarts and utilization of orphan episodes.

I think a more effective endeavor than starting a new game would be to have a well-designed "storylines" (or something) index page. Similar to the current "restarts" list but with a more refined selection of story trees (restarts, orphan-restarts, etc.) that were actually successful or otherwise well-written. If one of the problems with having such a large addventure is that it can be difficult to find a good story somewhere buried within the Jim/Rick/Sharon roots, then it might be beneficial to have a page somewhere advertising some good jumping-off points-- "Editor's Choice" or a "Featured Stories" list of restarts that are difficult to stumble across, or orphans that are almost impossible to stumble across within the main tree. You know, instead of listing all the restarts (essentially having a list of a few hundred failed attempts that only lasted a handful of episodes), you'd only feature the ones that were actually good and/or really popular. Restarts and orphan episodes are essentially the same thing as new games anyway, right? It's just an issue of finding them. Make sense?

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Adama

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Re: Should the ADDventure be restarted?
« Reply #36 on: September 30, 2012, 02:47:28 AM »
Well this page at least lets you seek out storylines which have had a lot of episodes added to them.

I'd support an Editor's Choice or Featured Stories page if someone else did the choosing and I just did the mechanics.  Possibly multiple someone else's for a more balanced input.  And so we don't get a lot of fanfic threads selected.
Adama, Addventure mega-geek

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JH_

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Re: Should the ADDventure be restarted?
« Reply #37 on: October 06, 2012, 06:24:28 PM »
Looking back, it sounds like two separate arguments -- "it's too full, and should be restarted with new content" and "the software needs to be better"

The first one could be easily fixed by me just starting up a "game2" Addventure (the current one is "game1").

For the second one, while I can make some improvements, the biggest improvement would be throwing out the current software and writing (or borrowing) a new engine for a new Addventure.  That isn't going to happen unless somebody _other_ than me wants to put in the work... and then they might as well just host it themselves.

As I've said before, the Extend-A-Story software has some nice features, and is available through Sourceforge. I don't think that setting it up here would involve that much work, but of course it would involve some.
JH

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Mark

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Re: Should the ADDventure be restarted?
« Reply #38 on: December 28, 2012, 11:35:59 AM »
The key insight that the original Addventure had, though, that isn't present in Extend-a-Story (or in most other addventure-like software) is to leverage the web server and avoid using a database for the most common operations.  That leads to a much more stable, performant, and extensible system which can handle the huge load that a site like BEA puts on it, as well as being trivially installable without requiring, say, mySQL to be presintalled.  I think it's safe to say that the BEA Addventure is now the largest installation of an Addventure anywhere on the web, with nearly a million episodes allocated and somewhere around 200,000 written.  The key design point is that reading an episode should take no more effort and (hopefully) no other processes than literally a web server returning a static file: this hews to the idea that reading episodes is 99.9% of all activity on an addventure, so it must be optimized for that activity. Incidentally, I'd be curious as to whether that assumption is true - some trolling through the Apache logs might give us some raw measures.

I've had some thoughts rattling around in my brain for a couple years now about a major rewrite; basically starting the software over again from scratch and just maintaining some of the key design principles while significantly improving the interface.  I'd make a point of writing clean and documented code, as well (probably Perl for maximum portability).

Any thoughts as to a PRD for it?  Someone wanna start enumerating their wish list for a new rev of the software?  Here's a few of mine:

- Borrowing from CYOC, the idea of having an author "suggest" a *few* possible following titles without actually making them be "true" forward paths yet?
- Certainly maintaining the difference between completed children and uncompleted children is key, whether the choices are merely flagged, as today, or literally segregated.
- Obviously allow some number of extra choices to be added at (arbitrary?) points in the future, rescind the limit of 5 (or raise it a lot, but only for registered users).
- Separate login levels with separate authoring rights (public can author some stuff, but you have to login to do things like edit your episode)
- Formalize the "storyline" notation that has grown up organically in the addventure by explicitly assigning an episode to a storyline.  Allow only "privileged" authors to create a new storyline with a code
- More formal support for searching within the addventure (leverage Google?)
- Much better tree navigation, especially "up and over" type of motion
- Allow rating/ranking of episodes
- Even tighter integration of episode comments
- Places for curated selections by administrators of various types
- WYSIWYG editor option
- Better mid-air collision detection and resolution for episode creation

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JH_

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Re: Should the ADDventure be restarted?
« Reply #39 on: December 28, 2012, 05:58:13 PM »
Thanks. That was very interesting. The largest addventure that I know of using Extend-A-Story is only just over a tenth of the size of the BEAddventure, and the number of episodes being read is probably an even smaller fraction. At that size and level of use, it's very stable and speed is not a problem, but I can readily believe that if its size and usage was increased to BEAddventure levels then things might be very different.
JH

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trainman

Re: Should the ADDventure be restarted?
« Reply #40 on: December 29, 2012, 05:08:41 AM »
- Borrowing from CYOC, the idea of having an author "suggest" a *few* possible following titles without actually making them be "true" forward paths yet?
- Obviously allow some number of extra choices to be added at (arbitrary?) points in the future, rescind the limit of 5 (or raise it a lot, but only for registered users).

Yes! The ability for an author to suggest any number of following titles, and then for successive authors to follow-up with either one of those titles, or a new title, with (apparently) no limit on the number of children -- I'd say that's the thing I like most about CYOC's software.

Although it would mean the end of the "Something Else" option (pause to wipe away a tear).

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Adama

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Re: Should the ADDventure be restarted?
« Reply #41 on: December 29, 2012, 06:44:00 AM »
Yes! The ability for an author to suggest any number of following titles, and then for successive authors to follow-up with either one of those titles, or a new title, with (apparently) no limit on the number of children -- I'd say that's the thing I like most about CYOC's software.

Although it would mean the end of the "Something Else" option (pause to wipe away a tear).
I've posted here before, asking if people wanted the CYOC ability to add new options to existing episodes -- which I think would be good -- but some people objected because it could cause continuity issues or cause storylines to become uncontrolled... I think.

And hello again, MarkT!
Adama, Addventure mega-geek

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Mark

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Re: Should the ADDventure be restarted?
« Reply #42 on: December 31, 2012, 03:10:00 AM »
Howdy!

Yes, I think we'd have to be aware of the increased possibility of vandalism; but I think restricting such "advanced" functionality to only registered users would alleviate much if not all of the issue.

Hmmm.  If E-A-S is performing well with a 10% load, it does make me wonder if using that infrastructure instead would be wiser.  I do note that physical hardware has improved significantly in the intervening decade since the BE Addventure was launched, and MySQL has improved greatly over the years as well.  It's possible that between then two of them, the performance of a database-based system would hold up.  We'd probably want some hard traffic numbers from BEA to put EAS through its paces, though, before making any primary decision like that.

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JH_

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Re: Should the ADDventure be restarted?
« Reply #43 on: December 31, 2012, 10:36:21 AM »
If you want to investigate further, the software's SourceForge page is here: http://sourceforge.net/projects/extend-a-story/
JH

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Chuck

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Re: Should the ADDventure be restarted?
« Reply #44 on: January 19, 2013, 11:16:18 PM »
BUT! If it ain't broken...