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soraxcloud

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Humm...
« on: July 11, 2005, 04:31:07 PM »
I hope I'm okay to post here... I was just wondering if anyone knew anything about this.
http://www.sbsproducts.com/
It's a site selling breast enlargement pills. It sounds pretty good to me. Just kinda wondering if anyone had any info on it as far as weather it works or not...
I've been looking into this for a wile now and I don't really know where to go from here I want to get them but I'm a little nurvous to try it.
I may put up a piccy of my as my avi later I think I'm like a B... and man would I love for them to be bigger. The surgery just dosen't appeal to me though.  

Re: Humm...
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2005, 11:34:50 PM »
All these pills will do is deplete your checking account.  Don't waste your money.

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greedy

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Re: Humm...
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2005, 12:27:37 AM »
Hi, The SBS product is an "herbal" breast enlargment (BE) pill. All herbal BE pills are "phyto estrogens" or to say it another way, the phyto part means that it is derived from plants, and the estrogens means that it will give an "estrogenic" reaction in the person taking it.

The estrogenic reaction that is sought is bigger breasts, and to an extent, they deliver. The process though is caused by estrogen causing swelling in breasts, abdomen's and sometimes legs and arms. Unfortunately the "growth" is not fat, which is what most breast tissue is, but rather water, and as such, when she has her period, it goes away.

There are other BE products that have a somewhat better results, (actually, herbal breast growth is about as close to zero as you can get) and those are the "glandulars."  The glandular that is used is called BO, which is short for Bovine Ovary. What you are buying there is freeze dried cow ovaries. The reason is that in mammals, the ovaries produce a large amount of estrogen and progesterone. Estrogen and Progesterone are "female" hormones,(both sexes have both, just in different amounts) The best web site that describes BO is the site "Bountiful Breasts" I am sure that if you use that in your browser that you will find the site easily. They have a lot of information there, and some marketing puffery that is not correct. One of the things that they use to try to differentiate themselves is that the say their product is "progesterone based" Well, there is a degree of truth to it, as part of the ovary does produce progesterone after ovulation. But all of the breast growth is accomplised by raising the estrogen levels.

Cows have the same three hormones that humans have, and three more. There is not a problem with the other three hormones, as the body simply eliminates them.

If you go to that web site, you will see that their prices are very high indeed. I would suggest that you look for "bovine ovary" in your browser and you should find a number of purveyors that sell BO for any number of "female" problems. You will want to use about 1,800 mg per day to start, and you can go higher.

As in any venture like this, there are a number of qualifications, and requirements. The bountiful breast site does a good job in mentioning two of them, which are first that the lady under going a BE effort needs to take 35 to 50 grams a day of whey isolate protein, usually in a "shake" form. The reason for this is that all of your endocrine system uses protein to make hormones, and much, much more. Most women are short in that department, and when the body starts to ration things, the endocrine system suffers along with the rest of the body. Well, since you are trying to change things, you have to have the raw material there to do the job.

The next thing is that sufficient amounts of thyroid hormone are necessary. Determining "sufficient amounts" can be a tricky thing, and is an area that you want to spend some time on. The easiest way to determine if her thyroid hormones are sufficient is to get a "basal" thermometer, and take her temperature first before she gets out of bed in the morning, then sometime in mid afternoon, and then late evening before she goes to bed. A "fever" thermometer, which is the kind that you will find on most drug store shelves is not accurate enough for this. So, you MUST get the basal thermometer. AS long as she averages 98.3 or above. If not, you will need to get her temperature up, and that involves a lot more than I can type here at this time. It is also something that you have to know what you are doing as it is a health issue.

The next item that will happen is that when she takes a BE program, her **112** will be thrown off, and she can get a really good case of PMS. This is due to the increase in estrogen, without an increase in Progesterone. To have a regular, PMS free cyle, she will need to have her Progesterone and Estrogen levels in balance. Balance is most easily determined by cycle length. Your goal is for her to have a 28 day cycle. Since you are adding estrogens, you will most likely need to add Progesterone. (and as another point, if you do NOT have to add progesterone, it is because she has naturally very low levels of estrogens. This is important all by itself to know, because later in life, having low levels of estrogen will expand from PMS into a very difficult time in "peri-menopause." That is a small book all in itself, so for this letter, if she is low in her own estrogen, she will need to take more of the BO AND most certainly the progesterone.

Progesterone can be purchased over the counter. I prefer the brand "Life-flo" and it is available in health food stores and on the net. It is not a prescription hormone, and it is very, very safe.

Life-Flo Progesterone is a topical creme. It is applied to the forearms, or upper neck, but not to the vagina/vulva. Soaking the arms ahead of time with hot water will expand the blood vessels and make it easier to get the progesterone in. Then rub it in. I prefer the Life Flo brand for another reason, and that is the pump top. One full stroke of the pump delives the 20 mg dosage that is the normal dosage. Start with that on days 12 of her cycle and continue until day 26, unless bleeding starts before. Day 1 of the cycle is the day of first bleeding. So, if she has bleeding on day 25, it is no longer day 25, but rather day 1 of the next cycle.

You can add more Progesterone if you need it. The way to determine if you need it is to track cycle length. If her cycle is longer than 30 days, add more Progesterone. If it is stable and the length is in the 26 to 30 day range, then you are fine. If the cycle shortens to less than 26 days, IF it was originally longer, then that is a sign that you have too much progesterone, and you need to cut back in the supplementation.

If you really get carried away with Progesterone, it will stop her cycle all together. This will not hurt her at all. The reason that the cycle stops is that the trigger for a **112** is that both her estrogen AND progesterone levels drop at the same time. If you artificially add more progesterone (by supplementing) that is more than she needs, the levels do not drop, and therefore, no **110**.

This is what happens when a woman gets a shot of Depo Provera. The Depo is not a true progesterone, it is a synthetic progesterone, but the body reads it as progesterone for purposes of **110**. The reason that a shot of Depo keeps a woman from **111** for so long is that the body has a very difficult time metabolizing it.

Since her body will metabolize natural progesterone just fine, if you overdue it with Progesterone, no problem. Just wait and her period will be along in a while. This will not affect your BE effort at all.

Well, if her temps are good, and you have followed the instructions, what you would look for to see if things are working is a "tingling" in her breasts. That is a good sign, and most often, swelling follows the tingling. This usally takes until the second full cycle to get to that point. If you do not get any tingles by the third cycle, you have some problem, and the usualy culprit is thyroid levels. Thyroid levels are critical to a BE effort, and not having enough can be like turning off a light switch in a room. The instant darkness is what happens when you are low in thryoid.

If you get the tingling, then things are going along ok. There is no average growth. Some ladies get one cup's growth in a month, others take 6 months. Some ladies can get one cup of growth and that is it, others have gotten 3 cups of growth. Unfortunately, you will not know if you are successful for at least three months after your BE effort ends.

The reason for that is that since you are getting plenty of real estrogens in BO, your growth could easily be the same water growth that comes from the herbal BE pills. Well, progesterone is a mild diuretic, (which is why in the herbal BE pills the girls get breast swelling before their period and then afterward, it all goes away). It will take a while to see if you actually caused her body to put more fat on her breasts, or if you were unlucky enough to get only water.

Sadly, even with a true hormonal approach your chances of being successful are not all that good. Some do gain a cup or two, some don't. There are no guaranty's.  Well, I guess that there is one exception. If the lady undergoing the BE program is young, say age 16, her chances of a large, permanent (actually, no breasts are permanent. Since they are fat, if she needs the fat, her body will take it, and she can become flat as a board--- but starvation is not all that big of a concern these days)breast growth are very good. Certainly estrogen is not all that is required to grow breasts, but it is one of the big hormones that is required, and if you did all that is listed here, that lady should do very well indeed. As an example, I had one mother ask me about this, followed the program, and had her 16 year old daughter go from a 34A to a 34G in 18 months. Last I heard, both Mother and Daughter were very happy with the results.

Having said all of that, there is no way that a BE program can compete with implants, at least for the larger sizes. If a cup or two is what you seek, then it may happen. If you want 4 cups, you need to visit your friendly surgeon.

Best of luck

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rtpoe

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Re: Humm...
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2005, 01:05:48 AM »
Thank you, Greedy, for that excellent post.

Good luck, Sara!

rtpoe
rtpoe

"What dreadful hot weather we have! It keeps me in a continual state of inelegance."
 - Jane Austen, letter dated Sept. 18, 1796.

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MasterDragonfly

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Re: Humm...
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2005, 05:33:34 AM »
Wow.  That was a very educated post you wrote there, greedy!

I'm guessing you're either a very devout hobbyist, or a medical professional (I'm guessing endocrinologist) with a personal interest in the subject.

Quote:

As an example, I had one mother ask me about this, followed the program, and had her 16 year old daughter go from a 34A to a 34G in 18 months.




Holy crap!

I'm guessing that there's more truth than not to the urban legend regarding a possible connection between BGH-enhanced milk and a larger number of younger women getting much bustier (on average) than, say, 20-40 years ago?

Quote:

Last I heard, both Mother and Daughter were very happy with the results.




Of that I have no doubt.  I can well imagine the daughter's popularity has skyrocketed (and no doubt loving it).  

Again, thank you for this very enlightened and informative post.

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melonie_charm

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Re: Humm...
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2005, 10:22:24 AM »
Greedy, that was an extremely thorough discussion on the realities herbal breast enhancement.

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SirCrazyWolf

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Re: Humm...
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2005, 05:29:28 PM »
For tolerably obvious reasons, I'm not in the market for this; still, one does like to keep informed. But I can't find any trace of this 'Bountiful Breasts' site anywhere. There is a reference to it in a thread on WAHM.com, but no URL. So just where is this site? Tried www.bountifulbreasts.com, but it brings up a blank page. The server exists but nobody's home!

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greedy

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Re: Humm...
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2005, 07:37:48 PM »
Hi SirCrazyWolf.  The site link is http://www.bountifulbreast.com/  

Best of luck with your education in the subject.

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greedy

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Re: Humm...
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2005, 08:25:50 PM »
Hello Masterdragonfly. You are a good guesser.

I did not chat with the daughter in the case that I mentioned, as that would have opened the door to areas that I would not want to visit. But the mother was very pleased, and said the increase in the girls confidence changed her life.

For me, that a young lady became more busty is not the most relevant thing, but that the change that it brought in her attitude and desire to get the most out life, was satisfying.

The field of clinical endocrinology is a field that is mostly neglected. Most endocrinolgy that is done today is in the cellular area. Certainly those are very important fields, as that is where the solutions to many troubling diseases will be found. However the clincal field of endocrinolgy is where many quality of life issues are solved.

The hormonal issue that you write about, which are the growth hormones in beef, do not seem to be much of a concern. Human Growth Hormone is a 196 atom molecule, and it lasts about 20 minutes in the blood stream after it is released. As soon as it makes it to the liver, its life is over. GH triggers IGF1, IGF2 and a few non hormonal peptides. Bovine growth hormone, which is used in beef, is not the same hormone as Human growth hormone. To add to that, as GH is a very large hormone, and each atom is critical to is mixture (as an example, the closest hormone in makeup to GH is Prolactin, so if you had an error in your growth hormone, you just might start making milk---ok, I am being a bit silly on that one, but yes, each atom is critical) and for beef, it is the same way. Bovine growth hormone does not last either.

The growth factors that are made from growth hormone are subject to different opinions. I doubt that the growth factors survive intact the process of cooking, and even if they did, to cause a reaction in a human, who uses a molecule that is different in their growth factors, is very, very remote.

What would make a difference in breast size over the last 20 to 40 years is an area that I will be writing a book about (only as a part of the book, not the main topic) next year. The first reason for the increase in size is generally we are better nourished as a species. The endocrine system takes its lumps when proteins are short, just like the rest of the body. However, if you "miss the boat" in protein, when your endocrine system is working at a partiular time in the growth sequence (puberty would be an example) you tend to have less of what could have been. Breasts are a very good example of that.

Breasts are fat mostly. The fat is not necessary for milk production, but it would seem that the only reason for extended breasts is visual sexual diffentiation. Obviously that is "good" or this board would not be there. But as to procreation, it makes no difference. So, if the girl misses a surge in hormones due to insufficient protein in her diet, breast growth will be a prime target for visual confirmation of that lack of protein.  Naturally, this does not mean that if you eat your protein that you will be large breasted particularly, only that you have given your body the raw materials to do what it was programmed to do.

The second issue that is just now coming to light, but has been suspected for years is the role of xeno estrogens. Perhaps you saw in the newspapers recently that pithalates were found to be responsbile for the sexual defects in baby boys. Pithalates are plasticizers, and are everywhere in our plastic products. The defect that was found in the baby boys was a significantly smaller penis, as well as a shortend area from the base of the penis to the anus.

Why that is critical, and why it is very important to just about everyone is because this proves that pithalates are in fact xeno estrogen. A xeno estrogen is (hmmmmm, a short and not all that accurate answer) a poison that gives humans an estrogenic reaction.

The role in development of the fetus is very easy to see. First of all, we all start out female. In the third month, those babies that will become male get a big burst of testosterone, and the changes begin. The vulva begins to close, creating the scrotum (for you males, you only need to look at your scrotum and you will find a nice ridge down the middle there, which is where your vulva came together there. The ovaries descend and become testicles (and for you girls reading this, you have sperm ducts in your ovaries, although they are, naturally, incomplete.) And yes, that is the reason that men have nipples. They got them when they were female.

Well, the issue of "confused genitalia" is a sad one, and it affects both species. In some people with a specific enzyme shortage they get a condition known as "adrenal hyperplasia). This defect causes higher levels of testosterone in the fetus than normal. In women, this raise in testosterone causes the development of a rather large clitoris, and can cause the closing of the vulva. There are a number of other changes, that make life difficult for these people.

Well, when you raise estrogen in a male fetus, the opposite occours. The penis (which develops from a clitoris) does not grow, and the movement up from where the vulva, and clitoris does not happen. This is noticed by measuring the distance from the anus to the penis when the baby is born. In females the distance from the anus to the vagina is very small. In males the distance from the anus to the penis is over an inch in length.

So the effects of the saran wrap, plastic cups, plates, spoons, knives, etc, etc, does have an impact.

But that example is only on fetuses. In growing children and adults, the same thing happens. The ramifications of this are felt in the general population, and I doubt that one in a million understands what that can do. But it is a significant addition to the rise in hysterectomies (caused by uterine hypertrophy) loss of libido in men (due to an estrogen-testosterone ratio imbalance) over time, and a number of other effects that are not as drastic, but which can mostly be countered with the right approach.

So, I guess that is a long answer to a challenge that I hope to address, which is to give the average person the basic information and tools to first recognize what is happening, and how to counter it. And beef hormones are not an issue to me, at all.

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MasterDragonfly

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Re: Humm...
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2005, 01:46:12 AM »
Quote:

Hello Masterdragonfly. You are a good guesser.




Go me!  

Quote:

I did not chat with the daughter in the case that I mentioned, as that would have opened the door to areas that I would not want to visit. But the mother was very pleased, and said the increase in the girls confidence changed her life.




The details weren't quite clear.  It almost sounded like both the mother and daughter had come to you.

Quote:

For me, that a young lady became more busty is not the most relevant thing, but that the change that it brought in her attitude and desire to get the most out life, was satisfying.




This might sound like an odd request, given the locale where we're having this discussion, but is there any chance of getting more details about this recipe (for want of a better word), or at least some useful references?  In part, my own daughter is years from finding out whether she'll be on the small side or happily big enough to suit her, but if/when the day comes when I sense (for I doubt she'll blurt it out to her old man) that she's wanting more than she has, I'd like to be able to point her in the right direction, or at least bring her to the right people with the right knowledge.  I recognize that there will only be one window of time to act on this, and once that window has closed, that's that (barring some new medical miracles between now and then).

Quote:

The field of clinical endocrinology is a field that is mostly neglected. Most endocrinolgy that is done today is in the cellular area. Certainly those are very important fields, as that is where the solutions to many troubling diseases will be found. However the clincal field of endocrinolgy is where many quality of life issues are solved.




Nice.  Any recommendations for a 175 lb, 5'10" guy who fights hard in the gym for every ounce of muscle gain?  (And no, I'm not overdoing it, but I've finally found a programme which at least nudges me in the right direction.)

Quote:

The hormonal issue that you write about, which are the growth hormones in beef, do not seem to be much of a concern. Human Growth Hormone is a 196 atom molecule, and it lasts about 20 minutes in the blood stream after it is released. As soon as it makes it to the liver, its life is over. GH triggers IGF1, IGF2 and a few non hormonal peptides. Bovine growth hormone, which is used in beef, is not the same hormone as Human growth hormone. To add to that, as GH is a very large hormone, and each atom is critical to is mixture (as an example, the closest hormone in makeup to GH is Prolactin, so if you had an error in your growth hormone, you just might start making milk---ok, I am being a bit silly on that one, but yes, each atom is critical) and for beef, it is the same way. Bovine growth hormone does not last either.




Interesting.  So any notions towards getting HGH to improve lean muscle mass is a bit of a waste of time, I take it?

[...snip...]

Quote:

What would make a difference in breast size over the last 20 to 40 years is an area that I will be writing a book about (only as a part of the book, not the main topic) next year. The first reason for the increase in size is generally we are better nourished as a species. The endocrine system takes its lumps when proteins are short, just like the rest of the body. However, if you "miss the boat" in protein, when your endocrine system is working at a partiular time in the growth sequence (puberty would be an example) you tend to have less of what could have been. Breasts are a very good example of that.




Very cool.  Would your book be discussing in any detail the cocktail which the aforementioned woman's daughter took to jump from A to G?  If so, sign me up for a copy.  Seriously.

Quote:

Breasts are fat mostly. The fat is not necessary for milk production, but it would seem that the only reason for extended breasts is visual sexual diffentiation. Obviously that is "good" or this board would not be there. But as to procreation, it makes no difference.




And I've heard in the world of anthropology (I believe his name was Richard Dawkins, same as the author of "The Selfish Gene") that full breasts are beneficial in one sense, given that we didn't always copulate in the missionary position.  Therefore copulating from behind (doggy style) would give the male a clear visual of the female's derrière.  Switching to the missionary position, the closest facimile would be full breasts.

Quote:

So, if the girl misses a surge in hormones due to insufficient protein in her diet, breast growth will be a prime target for visual confirmation of that lack of protein.  Naturally, this does not mean that if you eat your protein that you will be large breasted particularly, only that you have given your body the raw materials to do what it was programmed to do.




Pardon the humorous interjection, but this would lend some credence to the urban legend that if a woman swallows male ejaculate, that it will increase her bust size, in part due to the protein content.  

[... xeno estrogen details snipped...]

Ye gods.  Okay, this is news indeed.  Yikes.

Quote:

In women, this raise in testosterone causes the development of a rather large clitoris...




This is a bit of a (yet another) tangent of mine, but here's something I'd heard of some years ago on Usenet and was wondering if you could do a BS check on it:

One chap had mentioned he had some sort of contacts in the pharmaceutical industry, and managed to acquire some sort of testosterone gel for topical applications.  He applied it (presumably on multiple occasions) to his gf's clitoris, resulting in a noticeable (and permanent) growth.  It didn't develop into a monster phallus, but it was allegedly noticeable.  He then went on to claim he didn't want to share details, due to wanting to protect his source, etc.

So, BS or possible?

Quote:

But that example is only on fetuses. In growing children and adults, the same thing happens. The ramifications of this are felt in the general population, and I doubt that one in a million understands what that can do. But it is a significant addition to the rise in hysterectomies (caused by uterine hypertrophy) loss of libido in men (due to an estrogen-testosterone ratio imbalance) over time, and a number of other effects that are not as drastic, but which can mostly be countered with the right approach.




And presumably the right approach is in common usage today (for men, that is)?  Or is it more of a band-aid solution using the likes of Viagra?

Quote:

So, I guess that is a long answer to a challenge that I hope to address, which is to give the average person the basic information and tools to first recognize what is happening, and how to counter it. And beef hormones are not an issue to me, at all.




Very cool.  All very cool info.  Yup yup, sign me up for a copy of the book!

Oh, do you touch on naturopathy/homeopathy at all in your book?

Once again, an outstanding post.  

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greedy

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Re: Humm...
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2005, 07:26:24 AM »
Hello Masterdragonfly.

In response to your last, you wrote:
This might sound like an odd request, given the locale where we're having this discussion, but is there any chance of getting more details about this recipe (for want of a better word), or at least some useful references? In part, my own daughter is years from finding out whether she'll be on the small side or happily big enough to suit her, but if/when the day comes when I sense (for I doubt she'll blurt it out to her old man) that she's wanting more than she has, I'd like to be able to point her in the right direction, or at least bring her to the right people with the right knowledge. I recognize that there will only be one window of time to act on this, and once that window has closed, that's that (barring some new medical miracles between now and then).

You are the second person in two days to ask me that very question. The other request though really set me back a bit. It was written by a young lady in a "third world" country. In her country, and those around her, marriages are arranged. The usual method is to have mother shop for a bride for her son, and she is almost always the decision maker on the union. Apparently small breasts are viewed as a sign of poor fertility by the women, even though the more learned ones know that this is not true. As a result, there are any number of "poorly conceived plans" to increase breast size in those countries. Apparently the vendor of this information is the local beauty salon. Apparently, some women are never married and they attribute this to having small breasts.

This really tugs at my heart strings. I suppose that I can write one, but there are a number of challenges. First of all, I would have to use a pen name, as a book on growing breast in minor children would not be looked upon with much favor here in the States. I would also have to confront language barriers and pharmacological differences. But I am guessing that I will write one, and see what happens. I will be happy to post here when that happens, or at least mention that I know of a book that was published.

You asked about HGH in this question:
Interesting. So any notions towards getting HGH to improve lean muscle mass is a bit of a waste of time, I take it?

HGH is not a waste at all, and it can indeed add muscle to just about anyone. There are two main problems with it. First, it MUST be supervised by a physician. You would have to have an initial blood test to estabish a base line, and then follow ups every three months. Insurance would not pay for this as you would not be treating any current illness.  Second, HGH is very expensive. It is adminstered by injection, and each injection (adult dosages) costs between $12 and $18. Add in the doctor visit, the lab work and one shot per day, and things get expensive quickly.

As to the value of HGH, well, you have to remember that the medical community moves very, very slowly. Also, there are always two sides to any issue and there are two sides to this one. Sadly, because HGH is used so infrequently, there is no drug company willing to invest in establishing a protocol for the hormone except for its current uses.

As with any drug, physicians are free to prescribe it for what ever reason that they want, and more are doing so. There are two areas that I find great interest in, that are sadly, probably decades away from implementation in the general medical community. Those areas are for surgical pre and posttreatment, and second, heart revitalization.

The surgery aspect has been noted, and for those over 50, bringing there HGH levels up to those of the average 25 year old has shown to reduce healing times substantially. In people over 70, it cuts the surgical recovery time in half.

I imagine that it will take a long time for cardiologists to begin implementing HGH, and that is unfortunate as well. In people over 50, ( and naturally the benefit increases with age) the difference in the composition and amount of heart muscle is obvious. But that is another area where the costs play a factor, and giving HGH to everyone that could benefit it would make a large dent in the country's medical budget.

For you to get HGH, you have to go to a physican that has a protocol to hang his hat on. Defensive medicine is the name of the game, and without a society to say that the treatment that you get is normal, the physician is at risk.
That leaves you to visit Anti Aging Physicians, and Sports Medicine Physcians. The Anti-Aging group is much bigger, and they have a web site called the American Academy of Anti Aging Medicine--- A4M. If you type in anti aging in your browser you should fine the A4M site easily and they have a physician referral program.

AS to your question about your being unable to add muscle there are many fields to explore, and certainly I cannot do more than touch on the generalities. But with that proviso, lets go;

First, are your exercises designed to build muscle, or strength. The muscle building exercises involve resistance (weight lifting) done with large resistance and short sets. The idea is to exhauste the muscle shortly.

Athletes that train for strength, such as endurance runners, swimmers, cyclists, do not have the same builds as a weight lifter.

Second, if you lift weight, you destroy muscles. To build it back, you need s good Protein supplement. You do not have to get carried away with that supplement as your body can only process a set amount of protein at one time, and any more would simply be eliminated. I would suggest 50 to 60 grams of Whey Isolate Protein, usually consumed in a shake form every day. Add to that a good vitamin and mineral supplement.

The next area gets into endocrinolgy. To explain that in detail here is not possible, so I will touch on the high points.  I imagine that you are suspecting that your testosterone may be a bit low. Indeed it may be. The inability to add muscle mass (assuming that is your intent, and you are exercising to build that muscle mass) is one sign of a testosterone shortage.

AS to what you can do by yourself, without seeing a physican, and without getting in trouble with "steroid" misuse, you have three items to work with. They are Pregnenolone, DHEA, and Diindolymethane (DIM). Pregnenolone and DHEA are both hormone that are sold over the counter. Dim is a vegetable based pill that inhibits Aromatase, which is the enzyme that converts testosterone into estradiol (the most biologically active and predominant estrogen). By taking Dim pills you serve to reduce your estrogen levels.

If you are going to do this yourself, the items above will not hurt you, nor cause you any grief. If you are 25 to 35 years old, take 50 mg of Pregnenolone, and 25 mg of DHEA per day. If you are 35 to 45, you can take 100 mg of Pregnenolone and 50 mg of DHEA a day. If this makes much difference to you, you may feel muscle growth in a few weeks, but you may feel an increase in libido in a day or two. If you do feel a bit more of a tingle, then you are certainly on the right track.

After you have taken the Progesterone and DHEA for a couple of weeks, then start taking 240 to 960 mg a day of DIM pills. Again, if they are working, you MAY feel an increase in libido, and then, you may not.

After you get that far, and do not have any success, then it is time to visit your local Sports Medicine, or Anti Aging, or maybe a Holistic Health practitioner. Get the blood tests to test for testosterone, and don't forget to do get an Estradiol test as part of the package.

You then asked about the old testosterone on the clitoris trick. Ok, to answer your questions, Testosterone gel is available at almost all compounding pharmacies, and can be made in any strength desired.

Yes, testosterone applied to the clitoris will indeed make it swell. And No, the swelling is not permanent, although you may well indeed see a somewhat larger clitoris for a while.

What you did not ask is if it is a good idea, and that answer is no. First of all, realize that the "gel" is a transdermal creme. That means that it is a solvent, that is designed to penetrate the skin. The skin on the outerbody is much thicker than clitoral tissue. So the first probably result is a rash on her clitoris. Second the testosterone receptors are all over the clitoris. Hitting it with a high dosage causes a real overload on the nerve circuit, so the brain responds by "downregulating" the nerve. Now that may not sound all that bad, but lets compare it with using cocaine.

In cocaine usage, it causes a massive increase in the neurotransmitter Serotonin. This is the main mood determining neurotransmitter. AS the levels of Serotonin climb dramatically at the axon (nerve ending) euporia is the result.

BUT, while the person who takes cocaine is interested in achieving euphoria, the brain is interested in maintaining stasis-- or a stable level of the hormone/neurotransmitter. It would be like you standing directly in front of a huge speaker that was playing music that you liked. It may sound good for a second, but then you have to back away to preserve your hearing and your sanity. The brain protects itself by "turning the volume down" (downregulating). Now, normal levels of Serotonin do not make the connection, and the user of cocaine needs more to get back to normal. That person is now addicted. Breakign the addiction requires that the person have normal levels of Serotonin for a good long time in order for the brain to upregulate the neurotransmitter levels, and get the person back to not being addicted.

You would not want your wife "addicted" to testosterone. While she would not feel any addiction at all, she could very well loose her libido for a while. And she will not benefit from a swollen clitoris either. For the testosteone to do much for libido, it must be in the brain, and it takes a while to get there, no matter where you put it.

To take your thought one step further, (and I am smiling on this one) the thought process that you have shown here is a common one, but one that is pretty much unnecessary. If your goal is to cause your wife to be very responsive, or perhaps even fantastically responsive, and capable of having say a hundred orgasms in one evening, well, that can be done. Actually, I am about half way done with the book that tells all in this field. The name of the book is "The Plane of Orgasms" and I hope to have it published in the early spring of next year. In it is the knowledege of how to:
1. Put your wife into a continuous state of orgasm (The Plane of Orgasms)
2. How to change her responsiveness forever so that she can go from a state of non arousal to orgasm in under 2 minutes, and usually under a minute (as an example, my wife took 8 seconds tonight to go from non arousal to orgasm, and had about 40 O's in 15 minutes)
3. How to have her fall much more deeply in love with you.

And more. Please know that I will not be offended in the least if you do not believe anything that I have just written. No one else does either, with the exception of those that I have taught how to do this. They know exactly how it is done and are very enthusiastic about the whole thing.  

Hmmmm, sorry for the plug, I would not have mentioned it except your question about the testosterone on the clitoris item.

Hope that I have been helpful.

*

steveo

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Re: Humm...
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2005, 10:38:24 AM »
greedy! You ROCK... thanks for all the great info, and of course we don't mind the plug. In fact, I am sure most of us will want to read the book.

On this: xeno estrogen... This sounds like a scary problem, is there anyway to reverse the effects of that? Or has there not been enough research yet?


Thanks,

steveo
So, do you like big tits, or huge tits? ... U.S. Marshal Quigley

*

soraxcloud

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Wooo!
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2005, 01:13:08 PM »
Okay thanks alot to everyone who has helped so far!
Tell the truth I was a little afraid someone was gunna flame me for even thinking about posting that site for some reasion...
I wasen't planning on trying for huge breasts just bigger. Cause although I like the idea of having massive breasts I just don't think thats something I would want in real life.

Oh thats right and something that confused me... That site I posted it says the effects are permanint and it even says bad stuff about others that just add water or what ever... humm I am so confused! Meh oh well at least you all have given me another direction to explore in now.

*

greedy

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Re: Humm...
« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2005, 04:50:53 PM »
Dear Bob,  I am in receipt of your letter and fully understand the urgency. You have your account set to not accept personal messages, so I cannot respond to you. You will either need to change that setting, (and let me know that you have) or send me an email address so that I can mail you directly.

*

MasterDragonfly

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Re: Humm...
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2005, 12:46:53 AM »
Quote:

You are the second person in two days to ask me that very question. The other request though really set me back a bit. It was written by a young lady in a "third world" country. In her country, and those around her, marriages are arranged. The usual method is to have mother shop for a bride for her son, and she is almost always the decision maker on the union. Apparently small breasts are viewed as a sign of poor fertility by the women, even though the more learned ones know that this is not true. As a result, there are any number of "poorly conceived plans" to increase breast size in those countries. Apparently the vendor of this information is the local beauty salon. Apparently, some women are never married and they attribute this to having small breasts.




Interesting.  So in a sense, having larger breasts would make one more marriageable.  Or more marketable, in corp-speak.

The selfish gene strikes again.  This seems to be the one thing which transcends all cultures.

Quote:

This really tugs at my heart strings. I suppose that I can write one, but there are a number of challenges. First of all, I would have to use a pen name, as a book on growing breast in minor children would not be looked upon with much favor here in the States. I would also have to confront language barriers and pharmacological differences. But I am guessing that I will write one, and see what happens. I will be happy to post here when that happens, or at least mention that I know of a book that was published.




Sounds fab.  Bear in mind that this isn't the only issue which confronts parents as they prepare their progeny for adulthood, although it may be one of the more charged issues.  For example, parents will subject their progeny to orthodontia in order to improve their marketability in the workforce and in the marriage marketplace.  If someone put it in another perspective, "So, you want to force them to experience pain and social embarrasment?" this could open a can of worms.

Quote:

HGH is not a waste at all, and it can indeed add muscle to just about anyone. There are two main problems with it. First, it MUST be supervised by a physician. You would have to have an initial blood test to estabish a base line, and then follow ups every three months. Insurance would not pay for this as you would not be treating any current illness.  Second, HGH is very expensive. It is adminstered by injection, and each injection (adult dosages) costs between $12 and $18. Add in the doctor visit, the lab work and one shot per day, and things get expensive quickly.




Bloody hell.

Quote:

As to the value of HGH, well, you have to remember that the medical community moves very, very slowly. Also, there are always two sides to any issue and there are two sides to this one. Sadly, because HGH is used so infrequently, there is no drug company willing to invest in establishing a protocol for the hormone except for its current uses.




Seems to parallel the issues surrounding breast augmentation.

Quote:

As with any drug, physicians are free to prescribe it for what ever reason that they want, and more are doing so. There are two areas that I find great interest in, that are sadly, probably decades away from implementation in the general medical community. Those areas are for surgical pre and posttreatment, and second, heart revitalization.




Hey now, you've hit on yet something else interesting.  I'm 45, and my dad died of congestive heart failure at age 54.  But his lifestyle (and body type) was different than mine is.  Not saying I'm bulletproof.  Which is why this angle suddenly has my interest.

While I'm keen on weight training, cardio work is my Achilles' heel.  As a result, I don't much care for it.  Would love to improve on that (short of taking the "I don't like this, but it needs to be done" approach).

Quote:

The surgery aspect has been noted, and for those over 50, bringing there HGH levels up to those of the average 25 year old has shown to reduce healing times substantially. In people over 70, it cuts the surgical recovery time in half.




This is very helpful info to have for the future.  Or in my case, the not-so-distant future.

Quote:

I imagine that it will take a long time for cardiologists to begin implementing HGH, and that is unfortunate as well. In people over 50, ( and naturally the benefit increases with age) the difference in the composition and amount of heart muscle is obvious. But that is another area where the costs play a factor, and giving HGH to everyone that could benefit it would make a large dent in the country's medical budget.




Erm, a dent which way?  Obviously there's a cost associated with it.  I take it you're also saying that a small cost on this end means a big savings on the other end?

Quote:

For you to get HGH, you have to go to a physican that has a protocol to hang his hat on. Defensive medicine is the name of the game, and without a society to say that the treatment that you get is normal, the physician is at risk.
That leaves you to visit Anti Aging Physicians, and Sports Medicine Physcians. The Anti-Aging group is much bigger, and they have a web site called the American Academy of Anti Aging Medicine--- A4M. If you type in anti aging in your browser you should fine the A4M site easily and they have a physician referral program.




Duly noted.  And given that I'm getting older, I just might be able to play that card.  

Quote:

AS to your question about your being unable to add muscle there are many fields to explore, and certainly I cannot do more than touch on the generalities. But with that proviso, lets go;

First, are your exercises designed to build muscle, or strength. The muscle building exercises involve resistance (weight lifting) done with large resistance and short sets. The idea is to exhauste the muscle shortly.

Athletes that train for strength, such as endurance runners, swimmers, cyclists, do not have the same builds as a weight lifter.




I didn't want to get into this (considering the topic is on a fair tangent already), but here goes:

After having read various publications on Power Factor Training and Static Contraction training by Peter Sisco, I can honestly say this program (or at least a suitably modified version thereof) is working, both for me and my wife.  Training only in the strongest range.  Give the muscles time to recover (instead of overdoing it 5+ days per week).  As a result, our strength gains have been steady, but they're definitely there.  Doing the "old school" approach didn't work for me (and I'm not saying that others who love "old school" shouldn't do it; if that's what they enjoy doing, then more power to them).  In a couple areas we may have plateaued, but given the weight, I'm not too concerned.  In these cases, there are other factors which are really causing the limitations, such as pain in palms/wrists during bench press, despite gloves/neoprene pads.  If you saw my hands, you'd say they were the hands of a piano player or a surgeon, not of a weight trainer.

Here are the guidelines for our modified approach:

- work only in the strongest range (no full-range exercises)
- do a warmup set with 20-30% of the previous workout's best (for that exercise)
- aim to add at least 10% over the last workout's best
- if you can't get it off the pins, it's too heavy
- if you can do 20 reps, it's too light - add more weight for the next set
- aim for 5-12 reps per set
- if you think you can't get another rep off, do a static contraction until failure
- make the contraction quick (without swinging); hold for 1 sec, make the release slow (don't drop the weight)
- do at least one set; don't beat yourself up if you're not regularly doing at least 3 sets; aim for at least 3 sets if you can, 4-5 sets if you're feeling particularly energetic; when you're 'cooked', you're done

So, some examples of weights achieved during our last visits to the gym (typically we do 1-3 different exercises per visit).

Me:

Military press:  300
Bench:  320
Incline dumbbell bicep curl:  50*
Seated row:  190
One-arm kneel row:  90
Deadlift:  360**
Shrugs:  270
Leg press:  900***

*We just moved to our current location a few weeks back.  The current gym's largest dumbbells are 50 lbs, whereas the last gym's went to 100.  Last time I did this exercise there, I did 75.  We're bugging the management to get larger dumbbells.

**This was 450 at the old gym.  The Smith machine at the new gym isn't the same design, so it's not quite as safe as the old gym.  Also, the new gym doesn't have enough large plates to go this high.  Yet.  We're working on them to update the gym.

***This might sound like a crock, but you do a set with just one leg and there are ten 45 lb plates....  The gym doesn't actually have enough 45 lb plates to bring it up to 900, and besides, the machine in question doesn't have the room.  Oh, and this was at the old gym; we still haven't figured out how to do this at the new gym.

My wife:

Military press:  300
Bench:  310
Incline dumbbell bicep curl:  50
Seated row:  140
One-arm kneel row:  70
Deadlift:  90*
Shrugs:  180
Leg press:  900

*This was previously 180, but she felt she still hadn't recovered from the move to do more.

I've also got a couple publications from Pavel Tsatsouline on stretching and training without equipment, and would like to progress more along those lines.  This is the classic "I gotta get off my ass and do this" issue.  Ditto kettlebell training.

Quote:

Second, if you lift weight, you destroy muscles. To build it back, you need s good Protein supplement. You do not have to get carried away with that supplement as your body can only process a set amount of protein at one time, and any more would simply be eliminated. I would suggest 50 to 60 grams of Whey Isolate Protein, usually consumed in a shake form every day. Add to that a good vitamin and mineral supplement.




Another thing about lifting weights and destroying muscles:  I subscribe to the school of thought that they need time to repair, instead of living at the gym and never giving them time to recover.  Others may not agree; I want to reiterate that this programme has been the best out of anything I've ever tried.  For me.  If others find something which works better for them, cool.

We were doing the protein shakes for a while there.  This is one aspect we've let lapse.

Quote:

The next area gets into endocrinolgy. To explain that in detail here is not possible, so I will touch on the high points.  I imagine that you are suspecting that your testosterone may be a bit low. Indeed it may be. The inability to add muscle mass (assuming that is your intent, and you are exercising to build that muscle mass) is one sign of a testosterone shortage.




Plus, I may be genetically predisposed to this shape.  Regardless, I'd like to take the extropian approach and improve on what I have, if possible, and if the risks are reasonably low.

Quote:

AS to what you can do by yourself, without seeing a physican, and without getting in trouble with "steroid" misuse, you have three items to work with. They are Pregnenolone, DHEA, and Diindolymethane (DIM). Pregnenolone and DHEA are both hormone that are sold over the counter. Dim is a vegetable based pill that inhibits Aromatase, which is the enzyme that converts testosterone into estradiol (the most biologically active and predominant estrogen). By taking Dim pills you serve to reduce your estrogen levels.




Excellent.  All noted, thanks!  You don't mention whether DIM is available over the counter or not, so I'm curious where to go to get this.

I was actually doing DHEA for quite some time.  I wasn't certain it was doing anything for me, but my wife is now telling me that that (plus the protein) seemed to be making the difference.

Quote:

If you are going to do this yourself, the items above will not hurt you, nor cause you any grief. If you are 25 to 35 years old, take 50 mg of Pregnenolone, and 25 mg of DHEA per day. If you are 35 to 45, you can take 100 mg of Pregnenolone and 50 mg of DHEA a day. If this makes much difference to you, you may feel muscle growth in a few weeks, but you may feel an increase in libido in a day or two. If you do feel a bit more of a tingle, then you are certainly on the right track.




Okay, so maybe my DHEA intake wasn't high enough.  Makes sense.

And I'll keep an eye out for the tingles.  

Quote:

After you have taken the Progesterone and DHEA for a couple of weeks, then start taking 240 to 960 mg a day of DIM pills. Again, if they are working, you MAY feel an increase in libido, and then, you may not.




/me scribbles down notes furiously

Quote:

After you get that far, and do not have any success, then it is time to visit your local Sports Medicine, or Anti Aging, or maybe a Holistic Health practitioner. Get the blood tests to test for testosterone, and don't forget to do get an Estradiol test as part of the package.




Will do.

[...testosterone stuff snipped...]

No worries then.  We'll steer clear of this.

Quote:

To take your thought one step further, (and I am smiling on this one) the thought process that you have shown here is a common one, but one that is pretty much unnecessary. If your goal is to cause your wife to be very responsive, or perhaps even fantastically responsive, and capable of having say a hundred orgasms in one evening, well, that can be done. Actually, I am about half way done with the book that tells all in this field. The name of the book is "The Plane of Orgasms" and I hope to have it published in the early spring of next year. In it is the knowledege of how to:
1. Put your wife into a continuous state of orgasm (The Plane of Orgasms)
2. How to change her responsiveness forever so that she can go from a state of non arousal to orgasm in under 2 minutes, and usually under a minute (as an example, my wife took 8 seconds tonight to go from non arousal to orgasm, and had about 40 O's in 15 minutes)
3. How to have her fall much more deeply in love with you.

And more. Please know that I will not be offended in the least if you do not believe anything that I have just written. No one else does either, with the exception of those that I have taught how to do this. They know exactly how it is done and are very enthusiastic about the whole thing.  




Heh.  Well actually, you're preaching to the converted.    And a hundred for us (more accurately:  for her) in an evening is a good warmup.  A good cadence is about 1 orgasm every 3 seconds.  400-600 is a pretty decent evening, and when I'm feeling particularly festive, 1000+.

For us, this doesn't (usually) have much to do with the Plane of Orgasms, as that's a route I don't often take her down.  Except that we don't call it the Plane of Orgasms, we call it the Runaway Train.  (... clickety-clack... down the track...)  We do have our particular activities that we enjoy, which tends to stop us from getting wildly experimental.  Not that we're complaining, mind you.  (For the cynical:  No, this is not drug- or alcohol-induced.)

I suspect some percentage of it might be hypnosis on some level, although I'm far from being an authority on hypnotism.  A good chunk of it no doubt pertains to our chemistry, my voice, our energy or 'chi', and (obviously) lifestyle.

Having said that, I would still be very interested in getting your book.

Quote:

Hmmmm, sorry for the plug, I would not have mentioned it except your question about the testosterone on the clitoris item.

Hope that I have been helpful.




No worries, no worries at all.  As always, your post has been chock full of great info.