MERGED: The Politics Thread

[pedonbio]

Micheal Moore got a notice that students nationally are going to strike at 2 pm tomorrow, and then he urge all other students to join them.

http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/heather/michael-moore-class-war-thats-been-leveled

And I'm leaving for a demonstration that starts in downtown Seattle in 90 minutes. I think there is one in Portland, too. Just sayin'.

[MrsPacman1]

And I'm leaving for a demonstration that starts in downtown Seattle in 90 minutes. I think there is one in Portland, too. Just sayin'.

Please take pictures!

I'm sharing a link that makes me proud to be a Wisconsinite. The Firefighters Local 311 in Madison shut down a bank that funded Scott Walker. They withdrew all their money, and urged others to do the same. They did. 

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/03/10/954963/-Bank-that-funded-Walker,-now-Closed

Mrs*burn baby, burn*Pacman

[Real]

The same group of folks who would not allow government to operate until their rich friends got a half trillion dollar tax break are now celebrating that they've successfully used legislation to subvert good faith contracts.

inescapable conclusion:  Modern American conservatives stand for absolutely nothing but what their rich masters tell them to.

"We are worried about overreaching government"
"We are worried about middle class jobs."

Whatever else the GOP wants to argue, from this day forth at least anyone who isn't mentally challenged will immediately recognize those words for the lie they are.

The gloves are off and open war has been declared on the working class.  At least they've done the service of putting the cards on the table and moving past the point where they can deny it...

Seriously.  In what universe is government legislation undoing good faith bargaining a "Conservative win"?  The one where conservatives dont really even exist anymore, its just the corporatists and their oh so useful idiots who stand for no principle but their cake and eat it too. 

Pathetic...

[TheZookie007]

Barry Goldwater and William F. Buckley Jr. must be turning over in their graves so much, they think it's an earthquake out there.

[TheZookie007]

I'm sharing a link that makes me proud to be a Wisconsinite. The Firefighters Local 311 in Madison shut down a bank that funded Scott Walker. They withdrew all their money, and urged others to do the same. They did. 

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/03/10/954963/-Bank-that-funded-Walker,-now-Closed

Mrs*burn baby, burn*Pacman

Good on yer, Wisconsonites. Good on yer. Hit 'em where it counts: the pocketbook.

"A people! United! Can never be, defeated!"

[TheZookie007]

Part of this paragraph has been emphasized so that certain people around here can learn how to properly use certain labels.

Daily Kos, 12/23/10: "Republicans Lie A Lot: Here's The Proof"

"Reality has a well-known liberal bias" - Stephen Colbert

"Lies coming from Republicans: I'm pretty sure there are a lot of them. Like, a whole lot. It seems like Republicans lie more often than do Democrats. But I recognize that I am a liberal and I am a Democrat, and so when I hear about statements made by conservative Republicans, I notice the lies more prominently than your average American. So I decided to go to politifact.com (the non-partisan fact-checking project of the St. Petersburg Times that won a Pulitzer Prize in 2009) and count up all the lies to see who lies more: Republicans or Democrats...."

[TheZookie007]

Those Republican lies are from last year. This Republican's lies are from the last few hours or so:

Daily Kos, 3/10/11: "Peter King caught falsely denying having said 'we have too many mosques'"

[number3fac]

Meanwhile, here in the Land of PA (not "P-A")

Not to go off topic, but I don't understand the distinction...what's "P-A" supposed to be?  And I assume PA is just the US postal abbreviation, right?

[SamV]

It's my little in joke about the state that I've been a resident of for all my life. The Land of "PA"; and not "P-A" as in the US Postal abbreviation; is a wild and woolly place filled with all kinds of bizarre creatures and strange inhabitants. In that regard it resembles the lands imagined and created by L. Frank Baum, and if you have ever read his books on the subject you would get some idea of the place I find myself living in.

   

[MrsPacman1]

I have always loved Stephen King's novels and movies. Now I love him even more for appearing at a rally in Sarasota, FL. This is something you all will enjoy - a rich man complaining that he doesn't pay enough tax!

http://www.politicususa.com/en/stephen-king-has-something-to-say-to-scott-walker

Mrs*this man remembers where he came from*Pacman

[pedonbio]

I have always loved Stephen King's novels and movies. Now I love him even more for appearing at a rally in Sarasota, FL. This is something you all will enjoy - a rich man complaining that he doesn't pay enough tax!

http://www.politicususa.com/en/stephen-king-has-something-to-say-to-scott-walker

Mrs*this man remembers where he came from*Pacman

There are quite a few people like King around where I live, most notably the Gates families. Paul Allen, for the curious, is not.

And it's not just where they came from, but where they're going. You like small government and no taxes? Somalia has such a deal for you!

[TheZookie007]

Warren Buffett is like Stephen King in that regard too.

Some political comedy of a different slant now:

Elon Gold: "Hummus vs. Hamas"

[pedonbio]

In the rough-and-tumble school of politics, it was considered important to be able to think on your feet, because in the real world, you rarely have staff around to deal with sudden emergencies. Add to that, that a tele-prompter is just that--A prompter. If you are going to read a speech, read the speech, but don't read it off a tele-prompter and pretend you're delivering it.

Jan Brewer, accidental governor of Arizona, and full-time idiot:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=goW3r-xudTU

[SamV]

Yeah, it's too bad without a prompter Gov. Brewer can't verbalize a full thought all on her own.

Like when in the midst of her prepared comments and the teleprompter went *piff* old Jan partly acknowledged the foul-up by saying, "Well. ... A teleprompter went dead ...". But she failed to convey her full thought, which was, "Well. ... A teleprompter went dead, and now my brain's dead too."

[TheZookie007]

Why is Russia Today taking shots at an American? What gives these Russkies the right, huh? HUH??? That's just un-American!!!!!

[pedonbio]

Why is Russia Today taking shots at an American? What gives these Russkies the right, huh? HUH??? That's just un-American!!!!!

You mean the Palin thing? The only country that knows the results of fascists getting power better than Russia is Germany. The Germans don't say anything because they know that fascists thrive on xenophobia.

[TheZookie007]

Nah, not Palin (spits), I was talking about that Russia Today "Tool Time" segment skewering Jan Brewer. On second thoughts, more power to them, the bitch not only needs to be skewered, she needs to be put on a spit and turned over a slow fire or something too

"America's rich aren't GIVING you money, they're TAKING your money. Between the years 1980 and 2005, 80 percent of all new income generated in this country went to the richest one percent. Let me put that in terms that even you fat-assed tea-baggers can understand. Say a hundred Americans get together and order a 100-slice pizza. The pizza arrives, they open the box, and the first guy takes EIGHTY slices. And if someone suggests 'why don't you just take 79 slices?', that's socialism!"

-- Bill Maher, "New Rules" on Real Time with Bill Maher, 3/11/11

[Q_BE]

"America's rich aren't GIVING you money, they're TAKING your money. Between the years 1980 and 2005, 80 percent of all new income generated in this country went to the richest one percent. Let me put that in terms that even you fat-assed tea-baggers can understand. Say a hundred Americans get together and order a 100-slice pizza. The pizza arrives, they open the box, and the first guy takes EIGHTY slices. And if someone suggests 'why don't you just take 79 slices?', that's socialism!"

-- Bill Maher, "New Rules" on Real Time with Bill Maher, 3/11/11

This, ladies and gentlemen, is a classic illustration of the liberal straw man. Let us take each sentence and deconstruct it, and then explain the faulty reasoning behind it.


1.) "America's rich aren't GIVING you money, they're TAKING your money."

WRONG. The rich get money by exchanging an equivalent amount of goods and services with everyone else.


The argument here is that all money starts as money owned by the "little guys". Truth be told, if the "little guys" started with all the money, they wouldn't by definition be "little guys". Either way, the faulty logic results in where money is "generated". True, each individual American makes his/her own money based on the labor they produce (in an ideal world, where everyone labors for their income). However, that money doesn't automagically get "transferred" to the wealthy because of some inherent "flaw" in the system.


The rich "get rich" because they provide a product or service to lots of people which, to those people, is equal to the amount of income and labor they exchanged for that rich person's product or service. It's a two-way street. No money is lost, and no wealth is redistributed. The only way wealth is "lost" is when it is "consumed", and that is where our current "consumer" culture seems to go awry. It is only apparent that the "rich get richer" because they don't consume the same amount that they produce, as opposed to people who get by on "what they make". So, because the rich have an income that exceeds their expenses (a novel concept to liberals, I know), they accumulate wealth.


This creation of wealth is the basis of the capitalist economic system. It cannot be destroyed, merely redirected in perverse ways. This is evident in the welfare state, which is where the actual people exist who take from the system and give nothing back. As stated above, because people on the welfare state aren't generating anything in return for benefits, they are literally getting a free lunch. The true object of the welfare state should not be to support the poor; it should be to empower them to get off the dole and producing something in the economy. That is what the 1996 welfare reform was designed to do, and it achieved its objectives. You can tell this because liberals desperately want to roll that back, and God knows liberals seldom want to do anything to "reduce" government except when it reduces government's control on our lives.


2) "Between the years 1980 and 2005, 80 percent of all new income generated in this country went to the richest one percent."

WRONG. Wealth that was created in those years made everybody wealthier, including those who were previously poor.


The main words I want to splice here are the words "new income". That implies there is "old income", i.e., the state of existence of a set amount of wealth creation BEFORE the "new income" was created. I submit to you that the "new income" was created by those whose "old income" was increased by the beneficial magic of the capitalist system, as illustrated in the previous point. You can't make a blanket statement and say that "only the rich" got that supposed "80 percent" of wealth because it neglects the fact that perhaps some "poor" people went and found a way to "get rich". This statement goes so far as to oppose "new wealth" on the basis that it is somehow unfairly distributed by the capitalist system. I say, to the victor goes the spoils. The person who makes products and services that people want gets the money that people exchange for those products and services. Capitalism creates wealthy people; it doesn't cause people to remain poor.


3) "Let me put that in terms that even you fast-assed tea-baggers can understand."

WRONG. We Tea-baggers are as fat as everybody else.


Ad-hominem personal attacks. Need I say more?


4) "Say a hundred Americans get together and order a 100-slice pizza."

WRONG. A hundred Americans make a pizza, and they save that pizza.


The American economy is not a "pizza", in the sense that it is not a fixed amount of wealth that is distributed by capitalism among the people. The American economy is more akin to a cycle of nature, such as the water cycle, which continually reuses itself for the purposes of creating new and better things. The economy is the ultimate "renewable resource" because everybody who contributes to it makes it bigger and better. Government does not add to this process because the only money it generates is money that it taxes and takes out of that system. By supporting people who do not contribute to the process of wealth creation, and even by facilitating a lifestyle outside of that norm, the government represents the impediment to people in poverty, not the assistance that it so magnanimously claims to provide.


5) "The pizza arrives, they open the box, and the first guy takes EIGHTY slices."

WRONG. See Points #1 and #4.


Again, Mr. Maher wrongly assumes that the American economy is like a pizza. What he sees as the "pizza" is the end result amount of wealth that is not consumed by the people in the American economy. What the "pizza" most closely represents is "savings", or the amount of money that is not needed now by people and which is "saved" for later. Using this altered analogy, the "pizza" that Bill Maher sees is what the people of the country DO NOT EAT. Nobody starves because somebody takes 80 slices of the 100-slice pizza. The 80 slices represent new wealth that has been created on top of what has been consumed for people to exist. In fact, the person who "takes" the 80 slices more than likely is figuring out how to feed the other people with them in the future, so that the next pizza can be saved and those people who are fed can have more slices in the future with an even bigger pizza.


6) "And if someone suggests 'why don't you just take 79 slices?', that's socialism!"

WRONG. Socialism is where people's property rights are abrogated in the name of "fairness".


In Bill Maher's analogy, when someone takes a pizza slice, they are keeping it from someone else to eat. In the correct analogy, where the pizza represents the created wealth of the economy that IS NOT CONSUMED, then the perception is that when the government forcefully and unwillingly takes a slice from you to help someone else, they are taking what you rightfully earned as a result of the capitalist economy, and that infringes on your personal property rights. You ended up with 80 slices because people chose to invest their slices in your products or services. You aren't going to pig out on those 80 slices because you can't physically eat them. You are instead trying to figure out how to feed everyone else with those slices in the future so that you can save the next pizza and repeat the process. Nevertheless, people are seeking to blame you and your success for the impoverishment of everyone else! That is neither logical nor fair.

The idea of creating wealth to be used in the future represents proper planning, and it represents a proper perspective to the future. We want people who are able to be financially stable into the future because it creates a more stable future for ourselves. The economy is not a zero-sum game, and if government would get out of the way of capitalism, MORE people, not FEWER, would benefit from it.


Q-"Thank you and good night"-BE

[rtpoe]

OK, fair enough. I don't know enough about economics to debate the many points you copied wrote about.

But what I think most people are upset about is that not only is Mr. 80 Slice Guy not willing to give up one or two slices, he's also trying to sneak as many additional slices as he can. And he wants the ones with the most toppings. And claim the leftover crusts...

[Q_BE]

OK, fair enough. I don't know enough about economics to debate the many points you copied wrote about.

Actually, I invented that all myself. Not one word is copied (except of course, the Maher quotes).

But what I think most people are upset about is that not only is Mr. 80 Slice Guy not willing to give up one or two slices, he's also trying to sneak as many additional slices as he can. And he wants the ones with the most toppings. And claim the leftover crusts...

I didn't say that there weren't bad people within the capitalist system, just that the system itself isn't inherently bad. I compare this point of view to those who throw arguments around that we shouldn't blame Islam for the wackos who crash planes into buildings, or bomb US Navy vessels, or assault Fort Hood, or attempt to bomb Times Square. Well, why blame capitalism for the wackos who caused the 2008 economic crisis? Or who ran Enron? MCI WorldCom? Is capitalism a failure because of individuals like Bernie Madoff?

Q-"Every system has flaws, but capitalism has the fewest"-BE

[pedonbio]

The right-wing in America has reached it's blow-off phase, where it has passed its period of power, but it doesn't know it yet, and is prone to acts of foolish arrogance like this:

foolocracy.com/2011/03/wisconsin-protesters-surround-senators-home-wife-explains-that-he-lives-with-25-year-old-mistress-now/

Yet another "family values" asshole like Newt Gingrich.

[MrsPacman1]

Nice link, PB. 

Here's one that reminds us all how the corporations are literally paying little or no taxes, and how we and our children will be paying for it. The people are making their voices and positions heard!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqW4F-EQ9LM&feature=player_embedded


Mrs*SOLIDARITY*Pacman

[MrsPacman1]

I wanted to put this in the Japan Earthquake thread, but I felt it might be best served here.

Good LORD. I wish I could say I was surprised. I don't think this is the time for networks to be getting their information wrong. This is a serious time for Japan, and all of us. 

http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/fox-news-identifies-a-nightclub-as-a-nuclear-power


Mrs*wow....just wow*Pacman

[pedonbio]

I wanted to put this in the Japan Earthquake thread, but I felt it might be best served here.

Good LORD. I wish I could say I was surprised. I don't think this is the time for networks to be getting their information wrong. This is a serious time for Japan, and all of us. 

http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/fox-news-identifies-a-nightclub-as-a-nuclear-power


Mrs*wow....just wow*Pacman

I think this this part of the blow-off at work--Fox has no fact-checking (an idiot would have caught this) because everything they broadcast is either a direct lie, or so error-filled as to be worthless. A faithful viewer of Fox News is about as well-informed as a citizen of the Third Reich, and for the same reason--A morbid ignorance combined with no critical judgment.

[MrsPacman1]

The right-wing in America has reached it's blow-off phase, where it has passed its period of power, but it doesn't know it yet, and is prone to acts of foolish arrogance like this:

foolocracy.com/2011/03/wisconsin-protesters-surround-senators-home-wife-explains-that-he-lives-with-25-year-old-mistress-now/

Yet another "family values" asshole like Newt Gingrich.

There's more to this story, too. If Hopper is living in Madison with his mistress instead of his own district, that a violation of State Law. There has been speculation that he will resign or step down as a candidate when the recall election takes place. We are all watching this one. The TV ads about him are pretty good, too. They're not specifically mentioning the disaster his personal life has become - but instead are focusing on questioning "why isn't hopper listening to the people in his district?".

Mrs*maybe because he doesn't live there anymore?*Pacman

[3deroticer]

I think this this part of the blow-off at work--Fox has no fact-checking (an idiot would have caught this) because everything they broadcast is either a direct lie, or so error-filled as to be worthless. A faithful viewer of Fox News is about as well-informed as a citizen of the Third Reich, and for the same reason--A morbid ignorance combined with no critical judgment.

Must be hard to be a fact checker at FOXsnooze, always questioning if this outright lies or an error?

[DruulEmpire]

Interesting Republican-on-Republican action going on in Miami, Philly Eagles owner Norman Braman having led the push to recall Mayor Carlos Alvarez.

Meanwhile, pretty much the whole Midwest is looking mobilized ...

[pedonbio]

Interesting Republican-on-Republican action going on in Miami, Philly Eagles owner Norman Braman having led the push to recall Mayor Carlos Alvarez.

Meanwhile, pretty much the whole Midwest is looking mobilized ...

I suspect this is a continuation of the Birch Society's "purification" of the party. It comes during each blow-off phase.

[MrsPacman1]

Looks like Scott Walker is being called out for some claims he made during his public statements on the 17th of Feb, and the press conference on the 18th.

He said his office had received 8000 emails in favor of his bill on the 17th. During the press conference the next day the number had jumped to 19,000. All of them, of course, from state residents. 

So Isthmus and the AP filed a lawsuit after requesting copies of said emails - and were given the runaround. They won. I'm linking to the story.

http://www.thedailypage.com/daily/article.php?article=32765

Mrs*someone keeps forgetting about the laws in the state of WI*Pacman

[MrsPacman1]

I suspect this is a continuation of the Birch Society's "purification" of the party. It comes during each blow-off phase.

Blow...? Did somebody say blow...? 

Mrs*whooooosh*Pacman

[Q_BE]

Mrs*someone keeps forgetting about the laws in the state of WI*Pacman

Quote from the article and the settlement in particular:

As part of the settlement, the governor's office agreed to pay just over $7,000 in plantiffs' attorney fees and costs. But the settlement says this payment "is not nor is it to be construed as any admission of liability or of a violation of the public records law by Defendants, their agents, their officers or their employees."

Q-"MrsPacman's misconstruing the situation"-BE

[pedonbio]

Q-"MrsPacman's misconstruing the situation"-BE

Sure, he is just so filled with joy at being sued that he agrees two days after the suit is filed to pay the other side's attorney fees. Seven grand is pretty good for three day's work.

By the way, Cube, you never answered MrsPacman-- Do you live in Wisconsin?

[MrsPacman1]

Quote from the article and the settlement in particular:

I'm not an attorney, however, if Mr. Walker wasn't in violation (whether he admitted or denied it), why then would he be paying for the attorney's fees? Why not fight it and show proof that there was no wrong doing?
Either way you slice it...Isthmus and the AP won.

Q-"MrsPacman's misconstruing the situation"-BE

Isn't that the pot calling the kettle black?

Mrs*isn't afraid to tell people where she lives*Pacman
 

[SamV]

MrsP - Perhaps you were unaware of this story I found on the Isthmus after following your link but it seems to indicate that not all the Repubs in the WI State House have drunk themselves stoopid on Gov. Walker's kool-aid.

A former GOP aide to Senate Republicans: You can beat Walker

[MrsPacman1]

MrsP - Perhaps you were unaware of this story I found on the Isthmus after following your link but it seems to indicate that not all the Repubs in the WI State House have drunk themselves stoopid on Gov. Walker's kool-aid.

A former GOP aide to Senate Republicans: You can beat Walker

There were stories like this circulating up until the actual vote (illegally) took place. Whether or not there were Republicans who were hesitant, or even disagreed with Walker's bill, they didn't do a damn thing about it. The recall petitions ARE being circulated, and it WILL happen. At this point, the collective bargaining is only half of the matter. All the other cuts are starting to burrow under the skin of Wisconsinites like chiggers from a moss tree. There will have to be some major changes to this bill if these Senators want to get off that bus.

The "Mr. Walker goes to Washington" has been speculation ever since the prank phone call. I'm surely hoping the AP and Isthmus will also be asking Gov. Walker for the emails between him and the Koch bros, too.

Here is an article that solidifies what PB has said about that "blow off phase", IMO.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/16/conservatives-we-are-bein_n_836794.html

Mrs*yeah, I said blow*Pacman