MERGED: The Politics Thread

[pedonbio]

Speaking as a U of Chicago graduate (significant if you count up Nobel Prize winners for economics), the true answer to your question, 3d, is that economics is a very poorly understood area of inquiry. It is not the "science" it pretends to be. It is, I think, fair to say that the economic policies of Frederick II of East Prussia in the 18th Century have a lot to do with Germany's current relative prosperity.

[Siria]

I have a question, because someone brought up the blame of economy on former prez, is how long must the benefit of the action to take place by the acting president in order to credit that president hand on result of his policy?

It depends on what the policy change is and how you're measuring its impact.

A tax policy change will affect the federal budget immediately (unless the law specifies it goes into effect later)... But its effect on the GDP, unemployment, etc. will be further out in the future.

Fiscal policy actions technically take an infinitely long amount of time to be fully felt by the economy, because the multiplier process never really ends; the full impact of the action is asymptotically approached, but never actually reached.

Keep in mind also that some of the economic variables exhibit a certain amount of lag when compared to others. Unemployment lags behind GDP time-wise for several reasons (mainly the issue of discouraged workers, but there are other elements as well).


So... If the question is "when will Bush's policies stop being felt in the economy", the answer is "never". Properly, we're still feeling the after-effects of George Washington's fiscal policy too. As a matter of practicality, I'd say we'll stop feeling Bush's policies when Bush's policies get repealed, which doesn't look like it's really going to happen.

[JJ]

NO HELP WANTED JUST NOW.................

state of the Democrat Party, Sept 2010 in the 2nd year of the Obama residency of the White House...........

[3deroticer]

NO HELP WANTED JUST NOW.................

state of the Democrat Party, Sept 2010 in the 2nd year of the Obama residency of the White House...........

This has to be the first Political Cartoon that actually applies to a real situation. I think this was the reason why so many of us were disappointed with the Democrat for acting like coward and run for the hill, whenever Republican act like bullies.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2010/09/karls-campaign-notebook-democratic-strategist-steve-hildebrand-to-democrats-stand-up-and-lead-or-get.html#tp

[JJ]

I didn't say it.

HE did!
===============================================

 BUCHANAN TO OBAMA

        Finally............It is Said Publicly. Has the white side ever been more perfectly presented?  Pat Buchanan had the guts to say it. It is about time.


        BUCHANAN TO OBAMA
        By Patrick J. Buchanan

        Barack says we need to have a conversation about race in America .. Fair enough. But this time, it has to be a two-way conversation.. White America needs to be heard from, not just lectured to.... This time, the Silent Majority needs to have its convictions, grievances and demands heard. And among them are these:

        First, America has been the best country on earth for black folks. It was here that 600,000 black people, brought from Africa in slave ships, grew into a community of 40 million, were introduced to Christian salvation, and reached the greatest levels of freedom and prosperity blacks have ever known.. Wright ought to go down on his knees and thank God he is an American.

        Second, no people anywhere has done more to lift up blacks than white Americans. Untold trillions have been spent since the ' 60s on welfare, food stamps, rent supplements, Section 8 housing, Pell grants, student loans, legal services, Medicaid, Earned Income Tax Credits and poverty programs designed to bring the African-American community into the mainstream. Governments, businesses and colleges have engaged in discrimination against white folks -- with affirmative action, contract set-asides and quotas -- to advance black applicants over white applicants. Churches, foundations, civic groups, schools and individuals all over America have donated their time and money to support soup kitchens, adult education, day care, retirement and nursing homes for blacks.
        We hear the grievances. Where is the gratitude??

        Barack talks about new 'ladders of opportunity' for blacks. Let him go to Altoona and Johnstown , and ask the white kids in Catholic schools how many were visited lately by Ivy League recruiters handing out scholarships for 'deserving' white kids...? Is white America really responsible for the fact that the crime and incarceration rates for African-Americans are seven times those of white America ? Is it really white America 's fault that illegitimacy in the African-American community has hit 70 percent and the black dropout rate from high schools in some cities has reached 50 percent?

        Is that the fault of white America or, first and foremost, a failure of the black community itself?

        As for racism, its ugliest manifestation is in interracial crime, and especially interracial crimes of violence. Is Barack Obama aware that while white criminals choose black victims 3 percent of the time, black criminals choose white victims 45 percent of the time?

        Is Barack aware that black-on-white rapes are 100 times more common than the reverse, that black-on-white robberies were 139 times as common in the first three years of this decade as the reverse?

        We have all heard ad nauseam from the Rev. Al about Tawana Brawley, the Duke **14** case and Jena . And all turned out to be hoaxes. But about the epidemic of black assaults on whites that are real, we hear nothing.

        Sorry, Barack, some of us have heard it all before, about 40 years and 40 trillion tax dollars ago.

[onion_writer]

I am reminded of the classic episode "Miri," from the original "Star Trek":

Blah, blah, blah. Bonk, bonk on the head!

[Galidan]

       As for racism, its ugliest manifestation is in interracial crime, and especially interracial crimes of violence. Is Barack Obama aware that while white criminals choose black victims 3 percent of the time, black criminals choose white victims 45 percent of the time?

To be honest, I'm kind of surprised that incidents of black on white crime aren't higher than 45 percent seeing as how the US is 75 percent white compared to 12.3% black. There are so many more white targets than black ones that I can't say that I feel like black guys are ganging up on whitey.

[pedonbio]

       Is Barack aware that black-on-white rapes are 100 times more common than the reverse, that black-on-white robberies were 139 times as common in the first three years of this decade as the reverse?

One of the things you can count on Pat Buchanan to do is make up statistics.

When he was writing speeches for Nixon he made up the story about anti-war demonstrators spitting on veterans in airports. It is one of the most-repeated lies in U.S. politics.

[Siria]

One of the things you can count on Pat Buchanan to do is make up statistics.

When he was writing speeches for Nixon he made up the story about anti-war demonstrators spitting on veterans in airports. It is one of the most-repeated lies in U.S. politics.

There's a core group of conservatives who are actually quite intelligent, facts-based people who have legitimate differences of opinion with the people called liberals. There's also a group of conservatives who really don't know anything about anything and will just say whatever it takes to get people to listen to them.

Pat Buchanan is in the latter group. Facts don't matter as long as the outcome is angry listeners and higher ratings.

[pedonbio]

Whatever information is available can be found at http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/ucr.htm

For some of the problems with classifying crime the way Buchanan pretends to, I suggest the pdf monograph toward the bottom of the page entitled "Victims And Offenders: A New UCR Supplement To Present Incident-Based Data From Participating Agencies".

Evil idiots like Buchanan, who is nobody's idea of a conservative, take a very complex issue, make up some numbers, and pretend they are real. If you read the FBI page, you will notice two things: During Bill Clinton's administration violent crime fell by about a third; and the racial component of crime has remained the same: About 90% of white crime is against whites, and about 90% of black crime is against blacks.

As is usual for him, Buchanan ignores the 30% of Americans who are neither black nor white.

[onion_writer]

That was the most nakedly racist article I have ever read. I can barely believe it's real. I checked, and it's from March 21, 2008. It's mostly an attack on the Rev. Wright -- which JJ has edited out.

Not very helpful more than two years later.

[TheZookie007]

And don't let's even start on the bullshit "You American negroes are lucky we took you into slavery and forced you to become Christian, now you're better off than those dumb negroes back in Africa" idea that he pulled out of his lardass around three paragraphs into that tripe. Pat Buchanan should STFU for the love of Pete.

[TheZookie007]

(emphasis mine)

Huffington Post: "Colin Powell: Newt Gingrich's Obama Critique 'Doesn't Make Any Sense'"

I would just tell my fellow Americans: think carefully about what was just said, think carefully about some of the stuff that is coming across the blogs and the airwaves. Let's make a couple points: One, the president was born in the United States of America. Let's get rid of that one, let's get rid of the birther thing. Let's attack him on policy and not nonsense...But he is not a Muslim. He is a Christian, and I think we have to be careful when we take things like Dinesh D'souza's book, which is the source for all this, and suggest that somehow the president of the United States is channeling his dead father through some Kenyan spirits. This doesn't make any sense. Mr. Gingrich does these things from time to time, with a big bold statement. He did it with [Sonia] Sotomayor, she's a reverse racist; he did it with Elena Kagan, she ought to be taken off the nomination for Supreme Court justice; and he does it occasionally to make news and also to stir up dust.

[SamV]

I didn't say it.

HE did!

Yes and old Pat was full of B-shit when he said it, or wrote it.
And there you are JJ - repeating it.

...        First, America has been the best country on earth for black folks. It was here that 600,000 black people, brought from Africa in slave ships, grew into a community of 40 million, were introduced to Christian salvation, and reached the greatest levels of freedom and prosperity blacks have ever known. Wright ought to go down on his knees and thank God he is an American.

Oh, yeah Pat - I'm sure their forefathers and foremothers were so appreciative of being ripped from their families and homelands, forced to endure being chained below decks for weeks on end, and if they were lucky enough to survive the passage, to end up being sold as if they were nothing more than a dumb animal. Perhaps if only the slavers had offered then a trip to America on a Disney style ocean cruise ship; they might have made them more grateful about it - but for some reason, I doubt it.

Say Pay, did you ever hear anyone say all this "Christian salvation" crap was a typical white man rationale to justify taking pagans/heathens/Muslims and forcing them in to white servitude. And to make sure the new converts would accept this salvation, the Bible lessons could/would be administered at the end of a whip by their Christian brethren. After all, it much more important to save their souls, than the flesh on their bodies - right?    

And then after a couple of centuries finally they were freed. But they only then had to endure another century or more of white discrimination, both in social and economic settings. And if they got a little too "uppitity", well there was always some white(s) who would put them back in their place by intimidation, beatings, fire-bombing their homes, or their churches, where they practiced their "Christianity" that the whites gave them, and out-right murder. And if they sought out the civil authorities and pleaded for some justice before the courts, they usually got it in the perpetrators being found not-guilty by an all-white jury of their peers. But if they should continue to complain, well, they could be charged with something so a mob type lynching in the name of justice could finally take care of the matter.

       Second, no people anywhere has done more to lift up blacks than white Americans. Untold trillions have been spent since the '60s on welfare, food stamps, rent supplements, Section 8 housing, Pell grants, student loans, legal services, Medicaid, Earned Income Tax Credits and poverty programs designed to bring the African-American community into the mainstream. Governments, businesses and colleges have engaged in discrimination against white folks -- with affirmative action, contract set-asides and quotas -- to advance black applicants over white applicants. Churches, foundations, civic groups, schools and individuals all over America have donated their time and money to support soup kitchens, adult education, day care, retirement and nursing homes for blacks.

I must say Pat, it's amazing what all those liberal Democrats have done for the blacks in this country with all these government programs their created just for them. Oh, hang on  - did I just hear some comment from in the gallery that more lower and middle class whites have benefited from these programs then the blacks they were created for?

Hey, Pat - that can't be right - can it?

I mean the demographics in these country does show that whites out-number blacks by like a 8 to one margin. But whites surely don't need any of these programs to help them to climb up the economic ladder, not with all the private aid well-to-do whites give directly to their poorer cousins.

But there is one thing I'm sure you're wrong about regarding Rev Wright. I think he gives thanks to his God everyday for being an American in the 21st century, because he can finally tell white ninnys and asses just where they can go.

So Pat, if you do end up where Wright is suggesting, you better not pack any warm clothing  - I don't think you'll be needing it.  

[Real]

I didn't say it.

HE did!
===============================================

Lol, JJ's official motto...

[JJ]

OHIO turns against OBAMA  


Associated Press

COLUMBUS, Ohio — Frustrated, discouraged and just plain mad, a lot people who have lost jobs — or know someone who has — now want to see the names of Democrats on pink slips. And that’s jeopardizing the party’s chances here in Ohio and all across the country in November’s elections.

In this big swing-voting state alone, Democratic Gov. Ted Strickland is in a dogfight for re-election. Senate candidate Lee Fisher may be even worse off. As many as six House Democrats could lose their jobs this fall. Recession-fueled animosity is dominating every race, giving Republicans hope of huge victories.

In Ohio, like almost everywhere else, voters these days don’t much care for Washington, Wall Street or anything resembling the establishment. They grouse about every politician — including President Barack Obama, whom Ohioans played a critical role in electing. And they fume over the nation’s teetering finances.

More at......... http://www.nhregister.com/articles/2010/09/05/news/doc4c83f1c3e69ad391568010.txt

====================================================

There's FOX NEWS,

Then, there's everybody else!  LOL

[number3fac]

I was quite enjoying the discussion about taxation policy and the economy--two areas I about which I am woefully under-informed and was appreciating the education--until the latest bits of punditry were dropped into the thread.   

[JJ]

OBAMA AND DEMOCRATS HAVE SQUANDERED THEIR OPPORTUNITY


Michael Goodwin
NY Post

At the 2008 Democratic convention, Massachusetts Gov. Deval Patrick issued a warning to his surging party. "Democrats don't deserve to win just because Re publicans deserve to lose," he said.

It was my favorite line of the campaign, and we now know it was prophetic. Dems clearly didn't deserve to win all the power in Washington, as they prove almost every day.

Their failure to govern in a responsible and responsive way is wrecking the nation's finances and costing them the trust of Americans. They have sparked fear and loathing toward government institutions unprecedented in modern times.

So the temptation arises, as we get ready to go to the polls again, to issue the same challenge to the GOP. Just because Democrats deserve to lose, do Republicans deserve to win?

Yes, yes, a thousand times yes. By default, but not just default.

The 2010 midterms are not the flip side of 2008. This is an emergency election, as vital as any in memory.

Forget what the parties deserve. The nation deserves a major change in the balance of power.

President Obama, Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid have presided over an outrageous plundering of national wealth and power.

They jammed their hard-left partisan agenda down America's throat, as though majority opposition to their pet projects was only a hurdle to be overcome. They squandered their limited mandate and even now, facing political payback, remain determined to work their will as often as possible before the clock strikes midnight.

Already the damage is historic. From the unlimited growth of government to ruinous levels of unemployment, taxes, and dependency, to the rising tide of Islamic extremism, America is diminished and frightened.


Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/welcome_right_turn_NQeAIQfzbHJg6WZOhBtOdP

[onion_writer]

Cut and paste, cut and paste. Yawn.

[3deroticer]

Lol, JJ's official motto...

Those Republican all they do is "Cut and Paste!"

Remember when Democrats were accuse of Cut and Run?

[3deroticer]

I'll say it again FOX news is not a news channel under the FCC ruling, they change their format to entertainment to get around lawsuit against defamation of reporting lies.

[Shara]

wtfox news?

[robclassact]

I thought it was one big theatre piece.

[TheZookie007]

I was quite enjoying the discussion about taxation policy and the economy--two areas I about which I am woefully under-informed and was appreciating the education--until the latest bits of punditry were dropped into the thread.   

As were we all, number3fac. It's those types of discussions that this thread was actually built for, not the cut-and-paste hatchet jobs that JJ continually brings here. It's truly a pity. I cannot believe that after he quoted Pat Buchanan's completely racist thoughts, and after SamV took both of them to task over them, he could not do anything else but go back to spreading mindless anti-Obama propaganda. Since silence means consent, I can only come to one conclusion about JJ. Which is another pity.

[rtpoe]

I have to wonder how much of the Anti-Obama feeling is simply due to our overexpectations?

He was elected with the golden aura of Hope and Change, as if he could wave a magic wand and all the problems of the country would suddenly disappear.

Now that those dreams have crashed on the rocks of harsh reality, we're blaming him. Even though he did get health care reform and financial reform packages passed, despite the objections of the Party of Opposition.

As far as saving the economy goes, we'll never really know if his actions were the best possible under the circumstances. It's like having a cold. You take some over-the-counter medicine, and you soon feel better. But would you have gotten better faster if you took different medication, or even did nothing at all? There's absolutely no way of knowing. And everyone has their own opinions of what is best.

Could Obama be doing better? Perhaps. None of us really know the complexities of being President. Hollywood has convinced us that it's so easy, anyone can do it (q.v. Dave) when in reality the job calls for a hell of a lot of personal tact, administrative skill, and compromise.

[Siria]

As far as saving the economy goes, we'll never really know if his actions were the best possible under the circumstances. It's like having a cold. You take some over-the-counter medicine, and you soon feel better. But would you have gotten better faster if you took different medication, or even did nothing at all? There's absolutely no way of knowing. And everyone has their own opinions of what is best.

There's no way of knowing with perfect certainty. But we can estimate the alternative with statistical tools.

Effective prognostication is not guesswork, nor is it a matter of arcane sorcery. It is the fundamental acknowledgment that what will happen in the future has likely already happened in the past and that we can accurately predict our future reality based on our prior observations.

[pedonbio]

I have to wonder how much of the Anti-Obama feeling is simply due to our overexpectations?

I would estimate "virtually none". This column is a good example--The people who opposed his election still oppose him. The rest of us know that miracles do not happen in real life.

Ronald Reagan is remembered as a very popular president. He was elected in 1980; if you read magazines from 1982 (especially Newsweek) you'll find columnists speculate on whether he would be renominated because he was so unpopular.

[JJ]

Quote from: rtpoe on Today at 07:28:38 PM
As far as saving the economy goes, we'll never really know if his actions were the best possible under the circumstances. It's like having a cold. You take some over-the-counter medicine, and you soon feel better. But would you have gotten better faster if you took different medication, or even did nothing at all? There's absolutely no way of knowing. And everyone has their own opinions of what is best.
============================

There's no way of knowing with perfect certainty. But we can estimate the alternative with statistical tools.

Effective prognostication is not guesswork, nor is it a matter of arcane sorcery. It is the fundamental acknowledgment that what will happen in the future has likely already happened in the past and that we can accurately predict our future reality based on our prior observations.

============================================

Wrong!  The above - all wrong!

We DO know that increasing taxes, especially on those who are the primary producers in the American economy, only delays the day when the economy improves.

We DO know that increasing federal government spending unnecessarily especially on worthless programs which, if anything, only increase the size of government, only delays the day when the economy improves.

We know this yet we watch in astonishment as Obama and his left wing radicals in Washington put through tax program after tax program in the name of helping some poor soul here and there.

This is why there is a BIG shakeout coming.
Fortunately, most people in the USA are not subject to being hoodwinked by Obama's government interference in their lives.

[onion_writer]

Yes, JJ. Yes. Trickle-down economics works. We must protect the wealthiest.

Sheesh.

[TheZookie007]

Wrong!  The above - all wrong!

We DO know that increasing taxes, especially on those who are the primary producers in the American economy, only delays the day when the economy improves.

Where is your proof? Don't try and pull a Pat Buchanan on us, JJ.

[Galidan]

We DO know that increasing taxes, especially on those who are the primary producers in the American economy, only delays the day when the economy improves.

We DO know that increasing federal government spending unnecessarily especially on worthless programs which, if anything, only increase the size of government, only delays the day when the economy improves.

Nothing should ever be treated as common knowledge in the course of debate. If you're going to throw this out there, you should put up the science behind it.

[3deroticer]

So "JJ" you are against 97% of the Bush Tax cut? Your are saying that Obama proceed with this that mostly the Bush Tax cut are flawed?

[JJ]

Yes, JJ. Yes. Trickle-down economics works. We must protect the wealthiest.

Sheesh.

========================================================

Oh sorry, how silly of me.  

Of course, the money "trickles up", the poor supporting the wealthy.  

Everyone with half a brain knows that!  


=========================================
Steve Bridges as Barack Obama, indecisive and inexperienced.

Good for a real LOL !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rot1yguplr8

[Janus]

  If the rich support the poor they've been doing a horrible job over the last half century.

[3deroticer]

The lower income money trickles up more effectively than the other way around. One of the effective way of improving the economy is raising min wage and extend unemployment benefit, because they'll spend right away. They cant afford to save the money into a bank account. One of the reason when Democrats have the majority, everyone makes more money. Its been tried in Germany and Japan after the war, and they fair better because of it. I think the Democrats have a track record of improving the economy over the Republican.