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pedonbio

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Re: MERGED: The Politics Thread
« Reply #3405 on: February 19, 2011, 05:36:55 PM »
Like most uni-dimensional myths, it is amusing. We see vast prosperity in South Dakota, huh?
Someday, chi1dren, this entire fuck-up will be yours.

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SamV

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Re: MERGED: The Politics Thread
« Reply #3406 on: February 19, 2011, 07:51:29 PM »
And if these economic policies of Gov. Weller and the other newly installed "Repubs" (truthfully, to call them Republicans is a disservice to those guys with an "R"  by their name, as these guys really should have a "T" or an "L" by theirs) in the state capital wreck WI's municipal bond rating, then they will hear screaming from every city, town, and village government in the state.

But since these gentlemen have everyone's best interest in mind, and aren't just pushing a particular political ideology heedless of any facts or outcome ( ::)), I'm sure they won't tank the state's municipal entities ability to borrow money to run their local governments on a day to day basis, and not end up paying though the nose for the privilege. :-\  
« Last Edit: February 19, 2011, 07:54:56 PM by SamV »
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Q_BE

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Re: MERGED: The Politics Thread
« Reply #3407 on: February 19, 2011, 07:52:50 PM »
For those of you thinking that the Wisconsin debt situation was rigged by Republicans, check out this article:

WISCONSIN REALITY: THERE'S NO MONEY
Published Feb 18, 2011 by Dunstan Prial | FOXBusiness
========================

Before there was Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker and nationally televised demonstrations from the state house in Madison, Wis., there was Middletown, Ohio, City Councilman Josh Laubach.

Two months before Walker set off days of raucous protests by proposing that most of Wisconsin’s public unions be stripped of their collective bargaining powers, Laubach was making the same recommendation with much less fanfare in his town of 51,000 located midway between Dayton and Cincinnati.

“Basically I came to the realization that we are at a point in Middletown where we are spending more dollars than we can afford, especially on police and fire services,” said Laubach, a 29-year-old educator who just completed his first year as an elected official.

“I pointed out the economic realities of the situation. Middletown is spending a greater and greater percentage of its general fund, while at the same time getting fewer and fewer services,” he added. “This is not about us being anti-union. It’s a simple matter of economics. I swore an oath to uphold the U.S. Constitution and beyond that to spend the money of the constituents I represent as wisely as possible.”

In Wisconsin, a long brewing national debate has apparently reached a boiling point. Governor Walker, elected in November amid a wave of wins by fiscally conservative Republican candidates, is asking his legislature to pass a plan that would eliminate collective bargaining on a range of terms including sick leave, overtime hours, pensions and health plans, but keep it for wages.

Wisconsin is facing a $137 million deficit in its current budget and a projected $3.6 billion gap over the next two years. Walker wants to help plug that gap by requiring state employees to contribute more to their health-care plans and pensions.

Specifically, under Walker’s plan unions still could represent workers in wage negotiations, but they can’t seek pay increases above those pegged to the Consumer Price Index unless the hikes are approved in a public referendum. Unions also could not force employees to pay dues and would have to hold annual votes to stay organized.  

Approval of the bill would essentially make Wisconsin one of just a handful of so-called ‘Right to Work’ states, ironic given that in 1959 Wisconsin was the first state to enact collective bargaining laws for its public employees.

In exchange for bearing more costs to their health-care and pension plans, and losing some bargaining leverage, Walker has promised Wisconsin public employees no furloughs or layoffs.

The bill affects unionized public workers from across the spectrum of employment -- from teachers and garbage collectors to recreation department camp counselors -- but excludes police, firemen and state troopers.

Michael LeRoy, a professor of labor and employment relations at the University of Illinois, said this battle has been building for the better part of a decade as state and municipal governments have seen expenses rise -- especially in the area of employee pensions and health-care coverage -- while tax revenues have declined.

LeRoy said the fiscal crises facing any number of state and local governments make all aspects of government spending fair game for review in an effort to ease the burden on struggling taxpayers. But he questioned why collective bargaining is being singled out.

“I think it’s reasonable to ask questions about any type of state spending. That said, I would also say collective bargaining provides a mechanism to negotiate adjustments. Yes, I think it’s fair game to put it on the table. But it’s not fair to attack collective bargaining as a whole. Bargain tough at the tables and see how that goes,” said LeRoy.

Collective bargaining is the practice of allowing a representative of a group of workers negotiate the terms of employment with employers on behalf of those workers.

Supporters of the laws -- namely union leaders and their members -- say collective bargaining has fostered the growth of a prosperous middle class in many developed countries and at the same time has reduced the number of public-employee strikes.

Opponents have long argued that the process has been politicized and that contracts for public employee have gotten too generous.

Wisconsin State Rep. Tyler August, a Republican, made the latter point in an interview earlier this week with FOX Business: “This bill aligns the contributions state employees make to their benefit packages closer to that of those in the private sector,” he said.

Dennis Dresang, professor emeritus of public affairs at the University Wisconsin-Madison, said there are strong political overtones to the current debate. Many conservative Republicans, he argued, have “never been comfortable with collective bargaining, period.”

The fiscal woes of many state and local governments have opened the door for opponents of the practice to step in and offer proposals similar to that of Governor Walker’s in Wisconsin.

Dresang said he’s skeptical that eliminating collective bargaining will set state and municipal governments back on solid financial footing. Moreover, the move could backfire on politicians, especially state and local legislators whose constituencies are comprised of large numbers of public employees.

But Laubach stressed the tangible affects of public employee contracts bound by collective bargaining agreements on economically strapped local governments.  “We don’t have the freedom to control our expenses,” he said.

Laubach offered a resolution in December “seeking more flexibility” in negotiating municipal contracts in Middletown. But the proposal got little support and has since been tabled indefinitely.

“The public employee unions were not pleased,” he conceded. “But I have a job to do. I was elected to make the best budgetary decisions I can, and it’s my fear that the path we’re on will ultimately be harmful to the police and fire departments as well the citizens of Middletown.”

Laubach said he’s not surprised the issue has exploded onto the national landscape.

“Every school board and every municipal and every state government is dealing with the same restrictions,” he said. “This isn’t an us-versus-them debate. It’s a matter of not having enough money.”
========================

The battle in Wisconsin is about money—political money—and taking away the government unions' power to perpetuate, grow, and expand government entitlements to…the government. There is simply not enough money to go around anymore, and there really never was, and letting a select group of people continually vote themselves larger and larger entitlements is not sustainable, and this bill seeks to stop that process dead in its tracks. Every citizen ought to have an equal voice in government and what the government spends. The current system says that some citizens (government employees) are more equal than others. This bill is a first step to returning the power to those whose money is spent, not to those upon whom the money is spent.

Q-"'Nuff said"-BE

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SamV

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Re: MERGED: The Politics Thread
« Reply #3408 on: February 19, 2011, 08:11:09 PM »
Again the lie, "We're broke people" told by Speaker of the House John B and his ilk in the state capitals too.

Yet just this past year this country generated as much wealth as it did before the '08 economic contraction. The only difference is the high numbers of middle class workers, who the state and federal government tax primarily to raise revenue aren't working, and that is because the corporate interests have discovered they don't really need them. Makes me wonder how this is all gonna play out when the number of unemployed remain stubbornly high for years to come, regardless of how much the "Repubs" cut taxes or cut government expenditures to "stimulate" job growth. ::)

Ya know, if old Johnny boy really wants to sell that piece of malarkey, he should shed a few tears - they would be crocodile tears - but at least it might convince a few more fools in to believing it.   :-\ 
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DruulEmpire

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Re: MERGED: The Politics Thread
« Reply #3409 on: February 19, 2011, 09:14:02 PM »
Q, I'm still waiting for a counterprediction.

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pedonbio

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Re: MERGED: The Politics Thread
« Reply #3410 on: February 19, 2011, 09:31:34 PM »
Q, I'm still waiting for a counterprediction.

He never answers. Unless Faux has a cut-and-paste, Q-Cunt is at a loss.
Someday, chi1dren, this entire fuck-up will be yours.

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Q_BE

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Re: MERGED: The Politics Thread
« Reply #3411 on: February 19, 2011, 11:12:53 PM »
Seeing that the Republicans -- specifically Walker -- aren't going to win, what's your counterprediction for February 19, 2016?
Q, I'm still waiting for a counterprediction.

There is no need for a counterprediction: Protests Fail To Sway Wisconsin Governor

Q-"We won; you lost—get the picture?"-BE 8)

He never answers. Unless Faux has a cut-and-paste, Q-Cunt is at a loss.

How's that new "era of civility" working out for ya? Not so much, apparently… ::)
« Last Edit: February 20, 2011, 12:10:18 AM by Q_BE »

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Real

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Re: MERGED: The Politics Thread
« Reply #3412 on: February 20, 2011, 12:03:28 AM »
its so stupid.  republicans are going to continue to body slam the middle class and pretend it's their fault that only the rich are getting richer.

its beyond disgusting the way conservatives will climb onto the back of public workers to wave the flag whenever it suits them, then abandon their conservative "the best wages attract the best people" principles as soon as it comes time for them to scapegoat the middle class.

the next time some fucking maniac bombs a building in america i just hope conservatives stick to their guns in regards to these "freeloaders" as q-be's hero rush calls them instead of using them as a flagpole for fake corporatist patriotism.

conservative scream "jobs" and the minute they get into office its culture wars and knees to the groin of the middle class.  we'll see in 2012 if Americans on the whole are the biggest dupes in the free world..
« Last Edit: February 20, 2011, 12:09:33 AM by Real »
My current avatar is: Manda Dawn

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DruulEmpire

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Re: MERGED: The Politics Thread
« Reply #3413 on: February 20, 2011, 03:46:15 AM »
There is no need for a counterprediction: Protests Fail To Sway Wisconsin Governor

Q-"We won; you lost—get the picture?"-BE 8)

How's that new "era of civility" working out for ya? Not so much, apparently… ::)

#1: I Googled around and found an article saying that an end to the stand-off is nowhere in sight -- and that article was from Fox News.

When I run the Dow thread, I actually wait for the close of the day to actually exceed the level I was looking for, before I declare a win.  I'm happy for you that you seem to have taken over Kyle Chandler's "Early Edition" TV show, but not even Fox News is sounding so privileged.

#2: Collective bargaining has been a basic American right for generations.  When it gets stripped overnight, do people notice and mobilize?  Yes -- and they do so civilly, I might add, in full accordance with a little thing called the First Amendment.  That's the American way.

#3: It does zero to negate your thesis in any way to make a counterprediction for February 2016.  In fact, you're welcome to make it as apocalyptic and nightmarish as you please.  So go for it, if only for the entertainment value.  Because if you do not cover that alternative, and your "victory" somehow does not materialize -- bizarre things happen, Pittsburgh's newly elected mayor Bob O'Connor was suddenly stricken with a super-rare out-of-the-blue cancer -- then you forfeit everything you're posting here.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2011, 03:59:24 AM by DruulEmpire »

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3deroticer

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Re: MERGED: The Politics Thread
« Reply #3414 on: February 20, 2011, 02:29:48 PM »
The budget for the current year of Wisconsin is over 100 million in surplus. The request is 3.6 billion for the next 2 year which haven't even been voted on and not likely to pass every request. Some of the request are bogus just to play with the figures to create a false crisis. This came out from the states own financial report.

If Walker doesn't give in then all the year old state senate republican will face a recall election.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2011, 02:36:19 PM by 3deroticer »
"Yesterday, Reince Priebus called this whole story a 'nothing burger,'" he said. "Well these emails have turned it into an all-you-can-prosecute buffet."

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pedonbio

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Re: MERGED: The Politics Thread
« Reply #3415 on: February 20, 2011, 05:01:53 PM »
Someday, chi1dren, this entire fuck-up will be yours.

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Q_BE

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Re: MERGED: The Politics Thread
« Reply #3416 on: February 21, 2011, 03:19:38 AM »
Confirmation of the obvious:

www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/02/100224132655.htm

Intriguing. So liberals do have a purpose: to keep the rest of us smart enough to perpetuate the human race? ;D

Q-"Conservatism is more evolutionarily...conservative"-BE 8)

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DruulEmpire

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Re: MERGED: The Politics Thread
« Reply #3417 on: February 21, 2011, 07:00:37 AM »
Intriguing. So liberals do have a purpose: to keep the rest of us smart enough to perpetuate the human race? ;D

Q-"Conservatism is more evolutionarily...conservative"-BE 8)

YOU'VE GOT IT!

And evolution does tend to be conservative -- which is precisely why evolution alone will not suffice.  When reactionaries put down evolution, they fail to recognize -- and sadly, biologists somehow fail to make plain -- that the whole point of evolution vis-a-vis human beings is that we are BEYOND and outside it.  Evolution is a patient process of adapting a species to an environment -- but we're the reverse, we seek to shape our environment to suit ourselves.  But the crises we face today will not sit still for the necessary thousands and millions of years for us to adapt to them with our genes.  We must instead look to our "memes," our "cultural DNA," to save us in this century and the centuries to come.  That's where liberals come in.  We are at times horribly wrong, but at least we're bothering to look.

I don't quite agree with the article's suggestion that atheism is inevitable.  I will never be an atheist, but I also believe that we are imbued with a heretofore unspoken commandment: Thou shalt think.

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Q_BE

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Re: MERGED: The Politics Thread
« Reply #3418 on: February 21, 2011, 09:58:42 AM »
@DruulEmpire: While I appreciate your modest praise of what was intended to be a facetious statement (as you seem to have taken it seriously), I sincerely doubt that Republicans are going to fold on this collective bargaining issue before the Democrats do...beyond that, the Repubs are going to convene and pass a number of "non-spending" measures sans the Democrats, so I look forward to progress being made in Wisconsin despite the AWOL Dems.

========================

Pressure on Wisconsin Unions, Dems Grows As Walkout Drags On

By Chris Stirewalt

Published February 21, 2011



How Long Can Wisconsin Dems Stay in Hiding?

“For us, this is about balancing the budget. We've got a $3.6 billion budget deficit. We are broke. Just like nearly every other state across the country, we're broke. It's about time somebody stood up and told the truth.”—Gov. Scott Walker, R-Wisc., on “FOX News Sunday”

The 14 Democratic members of the Wisconsin Senate remain at large, with a handful vowing in interviews from undisclosed locations to stay in hiding as long as necessary to prevent a vote on a budget proposal opposed by government union workers.

But with only one Democrat needed to bring the measure up for vote and Republican resolve deepening, the standoff seems set to soon turn into a showdown.

Meanwhile, labor activists from around the country continue to flock to Madison to join the protest of the legislation which would increase state workers’ contributions to their retirement and health benefits and make future pay raises beyond standard cost-of-living increases subject to a public vote.

Tens of thousands of union marchers, many bussed in from around the Midwest, showed their opposition in a weekend march on the governor’s mansion and mass demonstrations. Government workers planned to use their Washington’s Birthday holiday for sympathy protests in Iowa and other states.

But amid the high-stakes standoff, there are signs that the union-Democrat coalition is showing some strains.

Union teachers were urged to return to classes by the head of their statewide labor group after repeated complaints from parents who have seen schools in many districts closed since the middle of last week as teachers call in sick. While out of state groups can replace the manpower for the sit-in protest at the capitol, the end of the sick out is a sign that public tolerance of the labor unrest is growing thin.


On the table now is a plan from a centrist Republican senator that would make the curbs on public employee unions in Gov. Scott Walker’s bill temporary. Union leaders declare the measure unacceptable because Republicans could vote to extend the restrictions in 2013, but it increases the pressure on Democratic senators to emerge from hiding and to allow the Senate to resume.

Remember, just one Democrat needs to be present for a vote to take place. Refusing to go to work for six days while the state capital remains in turmoil has not enhanced their bargaining position. While Walker and Republicans are on television and in newspapers pleading constantly for the legislature to be allowed to function, Democrats have been limited to furtive media appearances and forced to rely on labor leaders to carry their messages.

The Senate president says the body will reconvene on Tuesday in hopes that at least one Democrat may choose to break the boycott.

Democrats argue that there would be a heavy political price for Republicans to pay if the federal government shuts down over a budget impasse – that public patience will wear thin when political disagreements cause disruptions. By the same argument, Wisconsin’s Democrats are inviting a backlash by holding out.



Obama Terribly Tangled in Wisconsin Unrest

“I think it’s very important that we support pro-democracy activism everywhere, whether we’re talking about Manama in Bahrain or whether we’re talking about Madison, Wisconsin. It is a kind of rolling rebellion that is taking place.”—Amy Goodman, host of public radio’s “Democracy Now,” in an appearance on C-SPAN’s “Washington Journal”

The Obama White House is pushing back against the idea that the president and his grassroots campaign organization have helped whip up the labor unrest currently gripping Wisconsin.

The president’s communications director told the New York Times that the “organic, grass-roots opposition” in Wisconsin is not a result of White House involvement.

This is the administration looking to walk back Obama’s involvement in the fight as it becomes a flashpoint for the most liberal members of his party.

Obama called the Wisconsin austerity measure an “assault” on unions and his campaign has encouraged supporters to join demonstrations. But now, groups like Howard Dean’s Democracy for America and others are raising money and seeking support for a national effort to push back against Republican efforts to curb government unions.

With Ohio, Tennessee and many other states preparing legislation similar to Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker’s, liberal activists have seized on the concept as the determinative fight of the new political era. As Dean’s group said, stopping Walker in Wisconsin is “a chance to stop them all right here, right now. D.O.A.”

And since government workers are now perhaps the most important part of the Democratic coalition – providing foot soldiers and massive financial support for campaigns – a rolling effort to make it harder for government unions to collect money and enlist members would be a serious blow for the party.

But Obama’s decision to get involved early on in Wisconsin has plunged his administration into a state-level issue with lots of local complexities. It also associates the president with some ugly rhetoric and tactics being used in support of his position. Comparing the elected lawmakers of Wisconsin to the despots of the Middle East has become very common practice. And as the union-curbing movement spreads to legislatures across the country, the same dramas may play out across the land.

Illegal work stoppages and angry mobs of protesters out in support of the privileged few in government unions across the country does not bode well for Obama’s effort to re-brand himself as a centrist.

The longer this drags on and the uglier it becomes, the harder it will be for Obama.


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Q-"Copypasta at its finest"-BE ;)
« Last Edit: February 21, 2011, 10:00:28 AM by Q_BE »

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sidewalkpsycho

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Re: MERGED: The Politics Thread
« Reply #3419 on: February 21, 2011, 11:26:20 AM »

Q-"Copypasta at its finest"-BE ;)

Does this mean you and JJ are the same person? I've somehow been able to bear with the other duo/trio/whatever, but this might be more than I can take.
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