MERGED: The Politics Thread

[pedonbio]

Floridians seem to prefer governors with fraud convictions.

[PregNut]

If the government is so good at helping the poor, why are there still poor people?

[DruulEmpire]

On the chance that you're not making a bad joke ...

You might as well ask "If the government is so good at medical coverage, why are there still sick people?"  Or "If the government is so good at backing education, why are there still dumb people?"  Or "If the government is so great at defense, why do we have to keep spending on it?"

But all right, that's the whole "the tide goes in and out" argument.  Our society "accepts," for example, a minimum of five percent unemployment at pretty much any historical moment.  Are you for full employment?  No?  So let's take this as a specific ill.

It's not like the poor are one very definite set of people, like the marielitos that Castro dumped on Florida.  A lot of people are born poor who the government never get to, and if you break down how and why that is it's probably a function of budget and politics.  Look, when you ask "Why are there so many poor people?" are you truly wondering "Wouldn't it be great if we could do whatever it takes to eliminate poverty?"  Or are you actually saying "It's clearly a fool's errand anyway, so fuck it"?

Then there are people who find themselves poor.  I guess the point here is that the government is worthless and only the private sector can truly save them.  But here's the problem -- yeah, the private sector does so much of the hiring, but it also CREATES so many poor.  And when the private sector drops that ball, as it does all too often -- because remember, I started the Dow watch thread -- then who will pick up the slack?  Sure, a church here or a philanthropist there will help, but it's still the public sector that's left with the heavy lifting.

It's like all other problems: its only chance of getting solved definitively is if and when our whole society truly commits to that one goal.  It took us nearly two centuries including a bloody war to shake off slavery and Jim Crow, for crying out loud.  But since your question sounds far more about cynicism about government than concern for the poor, I'm guessing that such mobilization is still a long time coming.

The government is supposed to reflect votes, on the federal, state and local level.  If you've never cast a vote with the express hope of fighting poverty, then you are very much your own answer to your own question.

[pedonbio]

Thank you for writing that, Druul.

I just have a couple of things to add. One is a change in public thought: Thirty years ago people would have looked at you funny if you had said that 5% unemployment was "normal", and that was before Reagan had started jiggering the numbers to make himself look good, so the percentage was higher than it would be now. 2% unemployment used to be referred to as "frictional"--That many people would be unemployed and looking for work in a healthy, full-employment economy. Until 1981 anything over 4% unemployment would set off alarms, including extended unemployment insurance coverage.

That was before the "free market" nonsense started. If a society wants to destroy the value of labor, it needs to keep unemployment high, and since 1980 (If Jimmy Carter goes to Hell, it will be for starting deregulation) the United States has accepteds ever-higher levels of unemployment as "normal".

The other is the flip side of upward mobility. I suspect that most of us know someone who made $150K two or three years ago. They thought they were doing well. Then the company went bust, and it turned out that they couldn't walk into a similar job. They're almost poor now, and soon will be.

There is an even larger aspect to that. A century ago there was no question who was the richest man on the planet: John D. Rockefeller. Fortune Magazine started its list of the 400 richest people about thirty years ago. I don't think any Rockefeller has ever appeared on that list. 

[3deroticer]

Obama mention several times about the unemployment that we have will be the new normal.

John Boehner talks about slashing govt jobs over 650,000 which will effect 300,000 more jobs and his response is "So be it!"

That has got to hurt the GOP base! as much as the Democrat were disillusioned when we voted Obama to end the war and we are still over there.

[SamV]

Though I don't live in Florida, I can't help but watch the train wreck that appears to be happening with the change of leadership in the Governor's mansion in that state.  

My concern as a resident in the Land of "PA" (not "P-A") is will the citizens here face such delusional thinking from the man currently occupying our Governor Mansion. The one saving grace is that while Corbett is a long-time conservative Repub, he at least appears not to have bought in to all the Tea Party stupidity (yet).

Governor Scott's opposition to high-speed train makes little sense

Sun Sentinel News (opinion)

Once again, it's doubtful that Gov. Rick Scott has made a decision that is in the state's best interest.

Last week, it was his unwise call for dumping a prescription drug database. And, on Wednesday, the governor dropped another bomb — announcing Florida would reject $2.4 billion from the federal government for a high-speed rail line linking Orlando and Tampa.

The proposed high-speed train has plenty of support. The Florida Chamber of Commerce and Associated Industries of Florida — the Sunshine State's premier business groups — both wanted it, knowing it could lead to the building of another economically simulative-if-not-transformative high-speed line planned for Orlando to Miami.

Moreover, state transportation officials had fashioned agreements where the train's private operator — not the state — would pay any cost overruns and the cost of operating and maintaining the trains for 30 years. The project would have generated an estimated 23,000 construction jobs and about another 1,000 permanent jobs needed to operate and maintain it.

Yet Gov. Scott seemed oblivious to much of this in announcing his ill-advised decision. The governor suggested Florida taxpayers could somehow end up paying cost overruns — and subsidize it because of poor ridership.

But didn't the governor know that Floridians almost certainly wouldn't have had to pay the $280 million needed to complete the project — money needed in addition to the federal government's $2.4 billion contribution — because a number of companies vying to operate the line indicated they'd assume that cost? That fact had conservative members of Congress, like John Mica, R-Winter Park, chairman of the House transportation committee, falling in line to support the Orlando-to-Tampa line.

Maybe our governor was influenced by the governors of New Jersey, Ohio and Wisconsin, who rejected federal funding for rail projects before Gov. Scott, and earned rave reviews from tea party enthusiasts for their efforts. No doubt they're clapping today for Gov. Scott in Eustis, Fla., where last week he unveiled his program-hacking, $66 billion budget to hundreds of tea party minions.

But Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker noted his state would have had to pay too much to operate and maintain its rail line, whereas Florida would have paid nothing for its line. And New Jersey Gov. Chris Christy noted that unlike what his state was facing, Florida's deal wasn't burdensome to taxpayers.

Gov. Scott needs to do what would benefit all of Florida, not what might play well before tea party enthusiasts. Because, once again, it looks like the governor has made a decision without having a full array of facts to support it.

BOTTOM LINE: Killing high-speed train another poor choice by Gov. Scott.

Story posted 2011.02.17 at 03:00 AM EST
(Highlighting in article, my own)

[MrsPacman1]

Speaking of train wrecks -

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the mess Scott Walker has caused in WI? Personally, I'm deeply saddened by the obvious attacks on the unions. Well, with the exception of the ones who donated to Walker's campaign. Those haven't been part of this "bill". There is absolutely no monetary gain to be had by ending the collective bargaining rights of these hard working, decent public workers.

On the other hand, I'm wondering where all these Scott Walker haters were on election day? I didn't vote for him, but I'm surprised by how quickly people forget the consequences of their political actions, or lack thereof.

I'm looking forward to the mess that happens this afternoon when the Tea(tard) Party shows up. The protesters have already chanted, "FOX LIES" over and over every time there's been a live broadcast from that nitwork. I'm highly amused by this.  I'm even more amused by the massive winter storm heading our way in the next 12 - 15 hours. I hope they all get stuck here.

Mrs*grabbing the popcorn and kicking my feet up*Pacman

[SamV]

Mrs. P  - I did happen to post some passing comments in the OT Egypt thread about the large protests in Wisconsin's capital and in other state capitals.

My personal view is I think Gov. Weller and his political supporters, along with similar officials in other states, are being disingenuous in their attempt to use their states' various financial problems to craft bills and push them though in to law that are more to promote their political ideology than to solve the problems at hand.

One only has to look at the recent bill Gov. Weller and the Repub controlled legislature passed to lower corporate tax rates to the tune of I think around 150 million dollars, then the governor turns around and demands changes in retirement and health care benefits for the public sector workers to their detriment so to balance the state budget. And then he has the audacity to stand before the media and proclaim that everyone must "share the pain" to keep the state financially solvent.

I might not be the smartest person in the world, but to this out-of-state observer corporations in WI and their owners, seemed to be getting off with a windfall instead of any of that pain Gov. Weller spoke about. In fact, the only pain I see for a lot of people in WI, and similar states, is the pain in the ass their newly elected officials have turned out to be.

But then as I've said before, "the American electorate always gets the government they want and deserve". Seeing how far too many voters on the Democratic side of things in this last election sat on the sidelines rather than show up at the polls perhaps it will be a lesson learned. Unfortunately it comes at a very painful cost not only to them, but to many others also.

[Q_BE]

Let me make a Wisconsin prediction: it ranked 40th out of 50 states on the "best corporate tax climates" over the last 5 years (2006-present). (http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxdata/show/22661.html – Check the rank closest to the left side of the PDF document)

If the Republicans are able to implement their policies, watch the budget holes vanish in favor of budget surpluses, and check back in 5 years for their updated "tax climate" rank. Betcha it'll be in the top 15.

Q-"You betcha"-BE

[DruulEmpire]

Seeing that the Republicans -- specifically Walker -- aren't going to win, what's your counterprediction for February 19, 2016?

[pedonbio]

Like most uni-dimensional myths, it is amusing. We see vast prosperity in South Dakota, huh?

[SamV]

And if these economic policies of Gov. Weller and the other newly installed "Repubs" (truthfully, to call them Republicans is a disservice to those guys with an "R"  by their name, as these guys really should have a "T" or an "L" by theirs) in the state capital wreck WI's municipal bond rating, then they will hear screaming from every city, town, and village government in the state.

But since these gentlemen have everyone's best interest in mind, and aren't just pushing a particular political ideology heedless of any facts or outcome ( ), I'm sure they won't tank the state's municipal entities ability to borrow money to run their local governments on a day to day basis, and not end up paying though the nose for the privilege.  

[Q_BE]

For those of you thinking that the Wisconsin debt situation was rigged by Republicans, check out this article:

WISCONSIN REALITY: THERE'S NO MONEY
Published Feb 18, 2011 by Dunstan Prial | FOXBusiness
========================

Before there was Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker and nationally televised demonstrations from the state house in Madison, Wis., there was Middletown, Ohio, City Councilman Josh Laubach.

Two months before Walker set off days of raucous protests by proposing that most of Wisconsin’s public unions be stripped of their collective bargaining powers, Laubach was making the same recommendation with much less fanfare in his town of 51,000 located midway between Dayton and Cincinnati.

“Basically I came to the realization that we are at a point in Middletown where we are spending more dollars than we can afford, especially on police and fire services,” said Laubach, a 29-year-old educator who just completed his first year as an elected official.

“I pointed out the economic realities of the situation. Middletown is spending a greater and greater percentage of its general fund, while at the same time getting fewer and fewer services,” he added. “This is not about us being anti-union. It’s a simple matter of economics. I swore an oath to uphold the U.S. Constitution and beyond that to spend the money of the constituents I represent as wisely as possible.”

In Wisconsin, a long brewing national debate has apparently reached a boiling point. Governor Walker, elected in November amid a wave of wins by fiscally conservative Republican candidates, is asking his legislature to pass a plan that would eliminate collective bargaining on a range of terms including sick leave, overtime hours, pensions and health plans, but keep it for wages.

Wisconsin is facing a $137 million deficit in its current budget and a projected $3.6 billion gap over the next two years. Walker wants to help plug that gap by requiring state employees to contribute more to their health-care plans and pensions.

Specifically, under Walker’s plan unions still could represent workers in wage negotiations, but they can’t seek pay increases above those pegged to the Consumer Price Index unless the hikes are approved in a public referendum. Unions also could not force employees to pay dues and would have to hold annual votes to stay organized.  

Approval of the bill would essentially make Wisconsin one of just a handful of so-called ‘Right to Work’ states, ironic given that in 1959 Wisconsin was the first state to enact collective bargaining laws for its public employees.

In exchange for bearing more costs to their health-care and pension plans, and losing some bargaining leverage, Walker has promised Wisconsin public employees no furloughs or layoffs.

The bill affects unionized public workers from across the spectrum of employment -- from teachers and garbage collectors to recreation department camp counselors -- but excludes police, firemen and state troopers.

Michael LeRoy, a professor of labor and employment relations at the University of Illinois, said this battle has been building for the better part of a decade as state and municipal governments have seen expenses rise -- especially in the area of employee pensions and health-care coverage -- while tax revenues have declined.

LeRoy said the fiscal crises facing any number of state and local governments make all aspects of government spending fair game for review in an effort to ease the burden on struggling taxpayers. But he questioned why collective bargaining is being singled out.

“I think it’s reasonable to ask questions about any type of state spending. That said, I would also say collective bargaining provides a mechanism to negotiate adjustments. Yes, I think it’s fair game to put it on the table. But it’s not fair to attack collective bargaining as a whole. Bargain tough at the tables and see how that goes,” said LeRoy.

Collective bargaining is the practice of allowing a representative of a group of workers negotiate the terms of employment with employers on behalf of those workers.

Supporters of the laws -- namely union leaders and their members -- say collective bargaining has fostered the growth of a prosperous middle class in many developed countries and at the same time has reduced the number of public-employee strikes.

Opponents have long argued that the process has been politicized and that contracts for public employee have gotten too generous.

Wisconsin State Rep. Tyler August, a Republican, made the latter point in an interview earlier this week with FOX Business: “This bill aligns the contributions state employees make to their benefit packages closer to that of those in the private sector,” he said.

Dennis Dresang, professor emeritus of public affairs at the University Wisconsin-Madison, said there are strong political overtones to the current debate. Many conservative Republicans, he argued, have “never been comfortable with collective bargaining, period.”

The fiscal woes of many state and local governments have opened the door for opponents of the practice to step in and offer proposals similar to that of Governor Walker’s in Wisconsin.

Dresang said he’s skeptical that eliminating collective bargaining will set state and municipal governments back on solid financial footing. Moreover, the move could backfire on politicians, especially state and local legislators whose constituencies are comprised of large numbers of public employees.

But Laubach stressed the tangible affects of public employee contracts bound by collective bargaining agreements on economically strapped local governments.  “We don’t have the freedom to control our expenses,” he said.

Laubach offered a resolution in December “seeking more flexibility” in negotiating municipal contracts in Middletown. But the proposal got little support and has since been tabled indefinitely.

“The public employee unions were not pleased,” he conceded. “But I have a job to do. I was elected to make the best budgetary decisions I can, and it’s my fear that the path we’re on will ultimately be harmful to the police and fire departments as well the citizens of Middletown.”

Laubach said he’s not surprised the issue has exploded onto the national landscape.

“Every school board and every municipal and every state government is dealing with the same restrictions,” he said. “This isn’t an us-versus-them debate. It’s a matter of not having enough money.”
========================

The battle in Wisconsin is about money—political money—and taking away the government unions' power to perpetuate, grow, and expand government entitlements to…the government. There is simply not enough money to go around anymore, and there really never was, and letting a select group of people continually vote themselves larger and larger entitlements is not sustainable, and this bill seeks to stop that process dead in its tracks. Every citizen ought to have an equal voice in government and what the government spends. The current system says that some citizens (government employees) are more equal than others. This bill is a first step to returning the power to those whose money is spent, not to those upon whom the money is spent.

Q-"'Nuff said"-BE

[SamV]

Again the lie, "We're broke people" told by Speaker of the House John B and his ilk in the state capitals too.

Yet just this past year this country generated as much wealth as it did before the '08 economic contraction. The only difference is the high numbers of middle class workers, who the state and federal government tax primarily to raise revenue aren't working, and that is because the corporate interests have discovered they don't really need them. Makes me wonder how this is all gonna play out when the number of unemployed remain stubbornly high for years to come, regardless of how much the "Repubs" cut taxes or cut government expenditures to "stimulate" job growth.

Ya know, if old Johnny boy really wants to sell that piece of malarkey, he should shed a few tears - they would be crocodile tears - but at least it might convince a few more fools in to believing it.    

[DruulEmpire]

Q, I'm still waiting for a counterprediction.

[pedonbio]

Q, I'm still waiting for a counterprediction.

He never answers. Unless Faux has a cut-and-paste, Q-Cunt is at a loss.

[Q_BE]

Seeing that the Republicans -- specifically Walker -- aren't going to win, what's your counterprediction for February 19, 2016?

Q, I'm still waiting for a counterprediction.

There is no need for a counterprediction: Protests Fail To Sway Wisconsin Governor

Q-"We won; you lost—get the picture?"-BE

He never answers. Unless Faux has a cut-and-paste, Q-Cunt is at a loss.

How's that new "era of civility" working out for ya? Not so much, apparently…

[Real]

its so stupid.  republicans are going to continue to body slam the middle class and pretend it's their fault that only the rich are getting richer.

its beyond disgusting the way conservatives will climb onto the back of public workers to wave the flag whenever it suits them, then abandon their conservative "the best wages attract the best people" principles as soon as it comes time for them to scapegoat the middle class.

the next time some fucking maniac bombs a building in america i just hope conservatives stick to their guns in regards to these "freeloaders" as q-be's hero rush calls them instead of using them as a flagpole for fake corporatist patriotism.

conservative scream "jobs" and the minute they get into office its culture wars and knees to the groin of the middle class.  we'll see in 2012 if Americans on the whole are the biggest dupes in the free world..

[DruulEmpire]

There is no need for a counterprediction: Protests Fail To Sway Wisconsin Governor

Q-"We won; you lost—get the picture?"-BE

How's that new "era of civility" working out for ya? Not so much, apparently…

#1: I Googled around and found an article saying that an end to the stand-off is nowhere in sight -- and that article was from Fox News.

When I run the Dow thread, I actually wait for the close of the day to actually exceed the level I was looking for, before I declare a win.  I'm happy for you that you seem to have taken over Kyle Chandler's "Early Edition" TV show, but not even Fox News is sounding so privileged.

#2: Collective bargaining has been a basic American right for generations.  When it gets stripped overnight, do people notice and mobilize?  Yes -- and they do so civilly, I might add, in full accordance with a little thing called the First Amendment.  That's the American way.

#3: It does zero to negate your thesis in any way to make a counterprediction for February 2016.  In fact, you're welcome to make it as apocalyptic and nightmarish as you please.  So go for it, if only for the entertainment value.  Because if you do not cover that alternative, and your "victory" somehow does not materialize -- bizarre things happen, Pittsburgh's newly elected mayor Bob O'Connor was suddenly stricken with a super-rare out-of-the-blue cancer -- then you forfeit everything you're posting here.

[3deroticer]

The budget for the current year of Wisconsin is over 100 million in surplus. The request is 3.6 billion for the next 2 year which haven't even been voted on and not likely to pass every request. Some of the request are bogus just to play with the figures to create a false crisis. This came out from the states own financial report.

If Walker doesn't give in then all the year old state senate republican will face a recall election.

[pedonbio]

Confirmation of the obvious:


www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/02/100224132655.htm

[Q_BE]

Confirmation of the obvious:

www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/02/100224132655.htm

Intriguing. So liberals do have a purpose: to keep the rest of us smart enough to perpetuate the human race?

Q-"Conservatism is more evolutionarily...conservative"-BE

[DruulEmpire]

Intriguing. So liberals do have a purpose: to keep the rest of us smart enough to perpetuate the human race?

Q-"Conservatism is more evolutionarily...conservative"-BE

YOU'VE GOT IT!

And evolution does tend to be conservative -- which is precisely why evolution alone will not suffice.  When reactionaries put down evolution, they fail to recognize -- and sadly, biologists somehow fail to make plain -- that the whole point of evolution vis-a-vis human beings is that we are BEYOND and outside it.  Evolution is a patient process of adapting a species to an environment -- but we're the reverse, we seek to shape our environment to suit ourselves.  But the crises we face today will not sit still for the necessary thousands and millions of years for us to adapt to them with our genes.  We must instead look to our "memes," our "cultural DNA," to save us in this century and the centuries to come.  That's where liberals come in.  We are at times horribly wrong, but at least we're bothering to look.

I don't quite agree with the article's suggestion that atheism is inevitable.  I will never be an atheist, but I also believe that we are imbued with a heretofore unspoken commandment: Thou shalt think.

[Q_BE]

@DruulEmpire: While I appreciate your modest praise of what was intended to be a facetious statement (as you seem to have taken it seriously), I sincerely doubt that Republicans are going to fold on this collective bargaining issue before the Democrats do...beyond that, the Repubs are going to convene and pass a number of "non-spending" measures sans the Democrats, so I look forward to progress being made in Wisconsin despite the AWOL Dems.

========================

Pressure on Wisconsin Unions, Dems Grows As Walkout Drags On

By Chris Stirewalt

Published February 21, 2011



How Long Can Wisconsin Dems Stay in Hiding?

“For us, this is about balancing the budget. We've got a $3.6 billion budget deficit. We are broke. Just like nearly every other state across the country, we're broke. It's about time somebody stood up and told the truth.”—Gov. Scott Walker, R-Wisc., on “FOX News Sunday”

The 14 Democratic members of the Wisconsin Senate remain at large, with a handful vowing in interviews from undisclosed locations to stay in hiding as long as necessary to prevent a vote on a budget proposal opposed by government union workers.

But with only one Democrat needed to bring the measure up for vote and Republican resolve deepening, the standoff seems set to soon turn into a showdown.

Meanwhile, labor activists from around the country continue to flock to Madison to join the protest of the legislation which would increase state workers’ contributions to their retirement and health benefits and make future pay raises beyond standard cost-of-living increases subject to a public vote.

Tens of thousands of union marchers, many bussed in from around the Midwest, showed their opposition in a weekend march on the governor’s mansion and mass demonstrations. Government workers planned to use their Washington’s Birthday holiday for sympathy protests in Iowa and other states.

But amid the high-stakes standoff, there are signs that the union-Democrat coalition is showing some strains.

Union teachers were urged to return to classes by the head of their statewide labor group after repeated complaints from parents who have seen schools in many districts closed since the middle of last week as teachers call in sick. While out of state groups can replace the manpower for the sit-in protest at the capitol, the end of the sick out is a sign that public tolerance of the labor unrest is growing thin.

On the table now is a plan from a centrist Republican senator that would make the curbs on public employee unions in Gov. Scott Walker’s bill temporary. Union leaders declare the measure unacceptable because Republicans could vote to extend the restrictions in 2013, but it increases the pressure on Democratic senators to emerge from hiding and to allow the Senate to resume.

Remember, just one Democrat needs to be present for a vote to take place. Refusing to go to work for six days while the state capital remains in turmoil has not enhanced their bargaining position. While Walker and Republicans are on television and in newspapers pleading constantly for the legislature to be allowed to function, Democrats have been limited to furtive media appearances and forced to rely on labor leaders to carry their messages.

The Senate president says the body will reconvene on Tuesday in hopes that at least one Democrat may choose to break the boycott.

Democrats argue that there would be a heavy political price for Republicans to pay if the federal government shuts down over a budget impasse – that public patience will wear thin when political disagreements cause disruptions. By the same argument, Wisconsin’s Democrats are inviting a backlash by holding out.



Obama Terribly Tangled in Wisconsin Unrest

“I think it’s very important that we support pro-democracy activism everywhere, whether we’re talking about Manama in Bahrain or whether we’re talking about Madison, Wisconsin. It is a kind of rolling rebellion that is taking place.”—Amy Goodman, host of public radio’s “Democracy Now,” in an appearance on C-SPAN’s “Washington Journal”

The Obama White House is pushing back against the idea that the president and his grassroots campaign organization have helped whip up the labor unrest currently gripping Wisconsin.

The president’s communications director told the New York Times that the “organic, grass-roots opposition” in Wisconsin is not a result of White House involvement.

This is the administration looking to walk back Obama’s involvement in the fight as it becomes a flashpoint for the most liberal members of his party.

Obama called the Wisconsin austerity measure an “assault” on unions and his campaign has encouraged supporters to join demonstrations. But now, groups like Howard Dean’s Democracy for America and others are raising money and seeking support for a national effort to push back against Republican efforts to curb government unions.

With Ohio, Tennessee and many other states preparing legislation similar to Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker’s, liberal activists have seized on the concept as the determinative fight of the new political era. As Dean’s group said, stopping Walker in Wisconsin is “a chance to stop them all right here, right now. D.O.A.”

And since government workers are now perhaps the most important part of the Democratic coalition – providing foot soldiers and massive financial support for campaigns – a rolling effort to make it harder for government unions to collect money and enlist members would be a serious blow for the party.

But Obama’s decision to get involved early on in Wisconsin has plunged his administration into a state-level issue with lots of local complexities. It also associates the president with some ugly rhetoric and tactics being used in support of his position. Comparing the elected lawmakers of Wisconsin to the despots of the Middle East has become very common practice. And as the union-curbing movement spreads to legislatures across the country, the same dramas may play out across the land.

Illegal work stoppages and angry mobs of protesters out in support of the privileged few in government unions across the country does not bode well for Obama’s effort to re-brand himself as a centrist.

The longer this drags on and the uglier it becomes, the harder it will be for Obama.

========================

Q-"Copypasta at its finest"-BE

[sidewalkpsycho]

Q-"Copypasta at its finest"-BE

Does this mean you and JJ are the same person? I've somehow been able to bear with the other duo/trio/whatever, but this might be more than I can take.

[Q_BE]

Does this mean you and JJ are the same person? I've somehow been able to bear with the other duo/trio/whatever, but this might be more than I can take.

God, no. I can barely stand being myself, let alone someone else.

Q-"Just undercutting the arguments from the Forum Left"-BE

[Palomine]

God, no. I can barely stand being myself, let alone someone else.

Q-"Just undercutting the arguments from the Forum Left"-BE

Nice to see your sense of humor is still intact! "Undercutting?!" LOL!!!

Oh, wait... you're serious? You actually believe that your copypasta has managed to win a debate at some point. That's not so funny then... really, it's more sad than funny.

[pedonbio]

.


www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiaI63pBmLs&NR=1&feature=fvwp

[TheZookie007]

From The Rachel Maddow Show, 2/21/11 (emphasis mine):

"...So the last time Scott Walker did something like this, it is desperation to get rid of union employees, he overestimated how much money it would save, and allowed for a foreign based butt vodka drinking person in charge of city hall.

Woo hoo, that's Wisconsin's new governor. That's where he comes from.

The play book here is clear: The priority is to get rid of the unions, to break them up. The pretext to do that is financial, but it is clear that it is just a pretext.

The unions at the center of this fight offered to the governor, they said they would essentially give him all the financial concessions he said he wanted. But he said no to that. He doesn't want the financial concessions. He wants to strip them of their union rights or he wants nothing.

Finances are just a pretext.

Among the most expensive benefit package, the state pays for any union employees, are the ones for the unions that supported Walker when he ran for governor. Also happen to be the only ones exempted from his union stripping plan. If this was really about money, those would be the first ones on the chopping block, but it is not all about money.

Finances are just a pretext.

In the midst of the supposed budget deficit emergency that makes necessary this dramatic anti-union bill, the governor supported adding about $140 million to the state's deficit, when he passed a bunch of tax cuts without paying for them.

Finances are just a pretext.

When governor Chris Christie of New Jersey announces he needs to do the same because of his budget crisis, he is expected to announce it tomorrow, and when John Kasich of Ohio moves to do it in his state because of budget crisis, it will be a pretext in those cases, too.

Republicans understand that the business interests that support them have always wanted to get rid of unions, as it has always been and as it will always be. But more directly, Republicans understand sources of Democratic political power, and they understand sources of Democratic political power well enough to be focused across the country on how they can destroy those institutions. Corporations support Republicans. They made donations 93% Republican. But the people who cash paychecks instead of sign them, the people that work for companies instead of own the companies, actual humans instead of conglomerates, labor unions, those groups tend to support Democratic causes.

Here again, at the top ten big money contributors in last year's elections, seven of the top ten are right wing.    The only three that are not are unions.

Republicans understand enough about the sources of Democratic political power to want to destroy the institutions that make it possible for democrats to compete in elections. The question is whether or not Democrats understand the sources of their political power well enough to defend those institutions against Republican attacks.

Republicans, ideologically speaking, like to talk smack about the government. Government is the problem.

Ronald Reagan: "Government is not the solution to our problem. Government is the problem."

"Government is the problem." That's always the great awkwardness at the heart of Republicans campaigning for political office. If you don't like government so much, if you think that government is the problem, why do you want to be in charge of it?

But there are two things that Republicans really like about having government power.

One is the opportunity to take things government does and give them to private companies that do it instead. (Hello you there in the coconut bra.) The other thing they have passion for using public policy to attack and dismantle institutions that support Democrats electorally.

In case it wasn't crystal clear enough that's what's going on in Wisconsin, that that's what explains why 70,000 are in the streets of Madison this weekend, in case it wasn't clear enough, when the Republicans in Wisconsin announced today what they're going to do while the Democrats are gone and out of state, denying the senate the quorum needed to vote on the union busting thing, guess what the Republicans are going to do while the Democrats are away? Guess what they are going to do next?

A bill to make it harder to register to vote in Wisconsin.

You know, weirdly, we used this last week as an example of the kinds of issues that Republicans do this on. As an example, the way they use public policy for partisan ends, to benefit their own party and hurt Democrats, registering new voters has long been a great source of Democratic electoral strength.

Why is that?

Because young voters, and people that haven't voted before, do tend to vote Democratic.

So if Republicans can make it hard to register to vote, they can take away one of the ways that Democrats win in elections.

If you make it harder to register to vote, you make it harder for Democrats to win elections.

Republicans understand what institutions help Democrats win elections and they are using public policy to dismantle those things, for partisan purposes. So while they are waiting to destroy the unions in say Wisconsin, in the meantime, while they are waiting to do that, they will use their time to destroy voter registration drives.

Republicans understand Democrats well enough to know what to attack in order to weaken Democrats. The question now is do Democrats understand their own institutions and their own strengths well enough to know that they ought to be defending them...."

(full video)

[pedonbio]

Zookie, there are a couple of things underlying events that Maddow doesn't go into. One is that Walker has made it clear that he is happy to destroy the economy of Wisconsin and the future of the Republican Party of Wisconsin for the ideological purposes of the corporate interests that bought him. He knows he will be a one-term governor (if that) and will never be elected to anything again, so whatever the deal is that he has cut will be good.

The other thing is why the Democratic senators will stay away unless they can pick up three Republican votes. While the quorum rule only applies to money bills, the Republicans have enough votes to ram through anything they want and, unless a few Republican senators are willing to stand up to Walker, they will ram through anything they want. But there is, I am told, a serious question under Wisconsin law whether any law passed without a quorum is valid.

Finally, Walker has screwed the pooch. He is betting the future of the Wisconsin Republican Party that there will never be another Democratic victory in Wisconsin. We shall see.

[TheZookie007]

Zookie, there are a couple of things underlying events that Maddow doesn't go into. One is that Walker has made it clear that he is happy to destroy the economy of Wisconsin and the future of the Republican Party of Wisconsin for the ideological purposes of the corporate interests that bought him. He knows he will be a one-term governor (if that) and will never be elected to anything again, so whatever the deal is that he has cut will be good.

Too true. And very, very, sad.

Meanwhile, guess who is doing a classic case of "voice of Jacob, hand of Esau" up in Wisconsin? Ta-da, it's the Koch Brothers!

[MrsPacman1]

Zookie - I watched that episode of Maddow. It was, if nothing else, very eye opening. Not that I didn't believe what Walker was doing had any underlying motives.

I could post charts and graphs that show how the workers he's going after average the same salary as a high school dropout, or pictures of all the firefighters (their unions aren't on the chopping block) standing out there with the hundreds of thousands in solidarity. In WI, only 1% of the population makes over 300k per year. WTF is this guy doing?

I do not understand why this mockery of the democratic process continues. Wait, I take that back - I do know why . They have agreed to the pay cuts, the increase in contribution to their pensions and their health care. Still, no compromise. Today, Scott has started threatening "pink slips going out as soon as next week". The other one was, "200,000 kids cut from Badgercare". They're also cracking down on the Dr.'s signing notes to excuse the teachers.

Alas, the state of WI voted this college dropout in. Again, I DIDN'T. I have loved living in WI - brutal winters and all - since 2002. I don't want to see this place end up like my home state of Florida. And I fear this will happen .

Mrs* *Pacman

 

[MrsPacman1]

Meanwhile, guess who is doing a classic case of "voice of Jacob, hand of Esau" up in Wisconsin? Ta-da, it's the Cock Brothers!

Fixed! 

Mrs*and not the kind I'm into, either*Pacman

[pedonbio]

Fixed!  

Mrs*and not the kind I'm into, either*Pacman

What is it with Midwestern Republicans? Much as they slip over it, the Koch family name is German and is pronounced "Cock"; there's John Boner, and in another thread SamV brought up Harry Baals, the former Republican mayor of Fort Wayne...

And these are the people who insist on referring incorrectly to the "Democrat" Party.

[MrsPacman1]

What is it with all of those Republicans? Period!

Fixed again. I just couldn't help myself 


But you're right, PB. They're like the guy who drives the corvette because he's hung like a pimple. You know, "Vote for us! We have Cock, Balls and Boners... we're manly men!!"

Mrs*as if...*Pacman