Gripe session... =^_^=

[Nekojin]

Instead of having a new thread every time I (or someone else) sees something in the BEAddVenture that they don't like, I'd like to propose using one thread (maybe this one, perhaps? =^_^=) as a collective gripe session.

Note that this isn't necessarily a call to get something fixed - many of the things I'd choose to gripe about are mostly stylistic differences. I strongly favor a coherent storyline and consistent characters... others want the ladies to be little more than (vaguely) human-shaped cat toys, to be batted around as the whim strikes. We can all play in the same sandbox.

Right, then, let's get started.

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[DaEggMan]

...You do realise that it is your own aversion to disrupting continuity that prevents you from simply re-aging the character...ah the irony (sorry, couldn't resist a minor barb )

And yes, it pisses me off as well when someone makes some stupid mistakes like that, as well as the minor things like the time Mar Vir missnamed the main character in a thread on a regular basis (although it already had a precedent in in alternate thread, where such a mistake was incorporated into the plot by a quick thinking author...all was forgiven in the end anyway <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)

Certainly, the age is inapropriate...although if you wanted to, you could have her working in a sex shop for example by mistake, sorta like that Simpsons Episode...

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A quick glance through the character index will reveal that there is no concrete character definitions, making at-a-glance identification really hard, unless some things are made clear, and as noted that can be a problem in its own right. While there are some strange conventions that seem to have developed, the actual character changes quite a bit, especially age and job, level of intellegence (Jim is always a geek, but from memory, it is useually Rick who is more Mad Scientist...)
Hell, you could have an entire thread on the Legend of Jim: The Man and the Myth (hmm).

Intresting note, the only character with a fixed last name is Robin Foster, but Robin is the masculin form of the name, Robyn being the female. Just goes to show that tradition is powerfull.
 

[Nekojin]

Yep, I do realize that. But I'm one of those silly goofs who expects stories to make <i>sense</i>, even when they involve magic, time travel, or weird pseudo-science.
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[Kyrion]

Honestly, I don't see the point. By the time someone brought in the tenth different storyline that had a "Jim," a "Sharon" and an "Edith," all in the same thread, we'd have to say at the top of each post which storyline we were griping about, because it would be impossible to tell from the context. That would give us all the disadvantages of multiple threads, none of the advantages, and several new infelicities (it would, for example, become impossible to pick out all the posts discussing a single episode with one search).

My advice would be not to have "gripe sessions" in the first place. Why are they worth the trouble? Even if the author thinks, "Oh! Yeah, I goofed," as I've done several times, there's no way to go back and <i>change</i> anything he wrote. That makes spelling and grammar flames especially pointless, unless the author requests an English lesson. Most of the time, though, the author will say, "No! What I wrote is just fine and here's why," starting another flamewar.

That's the downside. There's no upside, because a gripe session isn't constructive criticism. Remember, the other authors are your <i>collaborators</i>. The addventure only works if the authors want to write a good story, not if they want to make the other authors look bad. If you've got to get your frustrations with your collaborators off your chest, please find some other way to do it than by arguing with them in public.

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Her job opportunities in Something Else are (copied and pasted... any spelling/grammar issues are the author's): Stripper at topless bar, Sailesgirl in sex-shop, Waitress in lesbian bar, Porno-actress in hardcore movies, Private french-maid for kinky and wealthy old dyke baroness (preferably) (as well as another Something Else looming menacingly but impotently - it's still a nodeshell, at this point).

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OK, the author may not have gone back and read the previous episode when he responded to the parent. Mistakes happen. Let's say that you do care enough about this one to follow up on one of the options and try to explain away the problem. Immediately taking away her job isn't much of a plot, and still doesn't explain any of the really interesting questions, like why would anyone hire Edith as any of those things in the first place, and why did she take the job?

Mod edit to remove references to a m1nor. No content involving m1nors is allowed anywhere at the BEA including the Plume forum or Addventure itself. If anyone sees some, they should PM a forum mod IMMEDIATELY so it can be removed. Thank you. -Palomine

For what it's worth, the best place for comments would be a comment list attached to the episode itself, like several other addventures have.
      

[JH_]

The problem is that many writers seem to be too lazy to follow a thread back before adding to it, so we get continuity glitches like this very frequently. I suspect that the worse and less careful a writer is, the less likely they are to be reading The Plume, so unfortunately pointing out mistakes here is unlikely to lead to any improvement in future.

[JH_]

I have a cousin whose name is Robina, but everyone calls her Robin. So that's a possibility.

[Chuck]

'Robin' is a unisex name, along with all its variations. The spelling 'Robin' is not inherently male. I know plenty of 'Robins' who are female. It can also be spelled 'Robyn', 'Robynne' and probably other variations also.

To say 'Robin' is the 'male' spelling makes no sense. Take another unisex name, such as 'Kelly'. Would it make sense if I said that 'Kelli' is the female format, and 'Kelly' is only for men?

Or what if we ban women from using 'Chris' and tell them they have to use 'Kris'? That's silly and arbitrary.

In my experience, most 'Robins' spell it R-O-B-I-N, male or female.

[DaEggMan]

Quote:
'Robin' is a unisex name, along with all its variations. The spelling 'Robin' is not inherently male. I know plenty of 'Robins' who are female. It can also be spelled 'Robyn', 'Robynne' and probably other variations also.

To say 'Robin' is the 'male' spelling makes no sense. Take another unisex name, such as 'Kelly'. Would it make sense if I said that 'Kelli' is the female format, and 'Kelly' is only for men?

Or what if we ban women from using 'Chris' and tell them they have to use 'Kris'? That's silly and arbitrary.

In my experience, most 'Robins' spell it R-O-B-I-N, male or female.  

Oh? Fair enough, I stand corrected.

And I agree with JH, it is hard enough getting any continuity when you have the entire thread from episode 2 on your hard drive, unless you could be bothered reading it every time you post. And even when you do go back to check random facts, there will still be different interpretations of what is written- many of the longer threads have little author notes either in the signature or as an asside at the start. More organised collaborations could use the PM system in the plume or email.

Then there are the hasty tastey additions. Not all are bad, not all are good, and the above is pretty much the anal retentive maximum in organisation the Addventure will get, and is certainly not the norm.

And yes, this gripe session is probably preaching to the converted. Still, at least we cleared that Robin stuff up, making at least one constructive outcome    

[Nekojin]

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My advice would be not to have "gripe sessions" in the first place. Why are they worth the trouble?


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I don't know... letting people like me blow off steam without wrecking someone else's work (even if the part I'm annoyed it is someone <i>else</i> wrecking the work) seems like a pretty good reason to me. I realize I'm not offering constructive criticism here... I even said, up-front, that I was griping about it. The most constructive criticism I could <i>give</i> to that author is, "read the whole thread, not just the previous chapter." In the case in point, the thread isn't even that long - only 4 chapters, I believe.

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Remember, the other authors are your <i>collaborators</i>. The addventure only works if the authors want to write a good story, not if they want to make the other authors look bad.

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But there are some authors who don't <i>care</i> about writing a good story, as long as they can stick their fetish of choice into it. And some are just as happy wrecking the story altogether (I've seen several instances where a episode had <i>absolutely no relation</i> to the parent episode, with completely different characters - and I'm not talking about "Magic Reset" episodes, where the reset is clearly stated).

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If you've got to get your frustrations with your collaborators off your chest, please find some other way to do it than by arguing with them in public.

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And I'm pretty sure you're aware that most of the people who have contributed to the BEAddVenture no longer participate, and/or are completely unaware of the Plume. Besides that, the BEAddVenture rules even suggest coming here for that:

<i><b>4.  No flame wars.</b> Avoid using the Addventure to "write" to other authors. That's what the Plume Forum is for. Especially no flaming of previous authors. Don't like what they wrote? Then either don't follow its links, or write a branch from it that goes in a direction you want to go. Do NOT write text in your episode about how dumb a previous author was, or how they ignored part of a story, or what-have-you.</i>

So that's what I'm doing, exactly as requested by the admins.

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I'm not personally going to follow up on any of those branches, but I could imagine any number of opening sentences that would start a more interesting story than, "The place gets raided on her first day on the job."

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I didn't say that I'd use that as an <i>opening sentence.</i> That would be shallow and meaningless. I'd be strongly tempted to use that as the theme for the chapter though, if I even wrote one at all.

As for your suggestions:

<ul type="square"><li>I'm not familiar with the "Mr. Black" character that you use in several of your examples. I've seen a few episodes that referenced him (Usually in connection with Sharon), but I don't have enough of a grasp on the character to think about using him in an <i>unrelated</i> thread. I gather that he's a pretty stereotypical villain, though.
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I could even run with the "porn actress" theme, since it <i>is</i> stated that she's horny and ready to be fucked... nothing in the thread up until then suggests that it has to be a <i>legitimate</i> porn studio. But the others (strip club, sex shop, lesbian bar) are too stationary, by necessity, to be able to pull off an "underground illicit" routine.

Heck, I might do that (the porn actress thread) tonight. =^_^=

When I'm writing for a collaborative work like this, I'll take enough care to maintain the characters' personalities as they've developed <i>in that thread.</i> In a story/game like this, the "Jim" from one thread can be an overweight loser science nerd, while a different thread portrays him as a somewhat-competent guy with a girlfriend. That's part of the whole <i>concept</i> of the AddVenture (At least, I <i>think</i> it is, unless I've missed something somewhere...). That's why there's no coherent "Guide to Jim." Right from the beginning, he fragments into completely different characters.

I'm willing to be respectful with other writers' work when they're respectful of the people who wrote before <i>them,</i> but people who don't even bother to go back <i>two chapters</i> for more insight into the characters - or, even worse, <i>completely</i> disregard anything that might be going on in the current thread - don't deserve a polite little note.

Note, however, that there are exceptions:
1.) Sometimes, a story thread devolves so badly that it <i>needs</i> to be, "laid to rest," and restarted.
2.) Sometimes the choices offered at the end of a chapter <i>should</i> include a few options that are out of character for the people involved, just to shake things up a little and put a new spin, and a different direction, on the story.

Maybe I'm not as friendly as you might like. But I'm not an utter bastard with a stick up his ass, either... I realize that total order is just as bad for this sort of thing as total chaos. The best line is somewhere in the middle. And I realize that most of my posts so far have been complaints... but that's because I can see <i>how fuckin' good this thing could be!</i>

I've read some of the other posts, discussing either a restart, or a second BE collaborative story-thing (whether it be based on the AddVenture or some other similar program). I think it's a good idea. Personally, I'd vote to leave the existing BEAddVenture intact and still working - there's some good shit in there, after all, and some ripe threads waiting for someone to develop them - alongside the new one. And I think that most of the suggestions made (adding new choices after the fact, allowing for author editing with limits, and so on) are good ideas. The only idea I <i>don't</i> agree with is the "Comments" section on each chapter. In places that I've seen things like that implemented, they often turn into rolling flamefests, even when useful commentary is offered.

If the majority of the regulars (or even a single Admin) wants me to shut the hell up, I'll do that. But I think that I can be a valuable voice here. I just ask for the ability to vent about some of the idiocies in the storyline where someone might care, or even have a clue as to what I'm talking about.

Nekojin =^_^=  

[Adama]

It's good to have articulate criticism / discussion about the Addventure here.  Keep it up.  I think that most criticism we've had in the past has been within the Addventure itself, which pisses more people off because (as you say) it's the wrong place to do it; because of that, people may have gotten into the habit of thinking all Addventure criticism is bad.

I think I need to reword that last sentence to make more sense, but I'm too tired to. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

But keep griping!  As long as you don't start handing out sandwiches...  <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

My take on continuity: One should strive for it as much as humanly possible.  On the other hand, one should be allowed to toss out some less-important pieces of continuity if it helps you tell the story you want to tell.  That doesn't mean tossing out the whole thing, but you should be able to change details that haven't even been mentioned in over a hundred episodes...

Edith: In her original appearances she was Mod edit to remove references to a m1nor. No content involving m1nors is allowed anywhere at the BEA including the Plume forum or Addventure itself. If anyone sees some, they should PM a forum mod IMMEDIATELY so it can be removed. Thank you. -Palomine years old but soon got magically transformed into a teenager or adult.  She's been other ages too, including 20 in one thread.

  

[Chuck]

No restart! Why flush the whole thing down the toilet? If there is to be a second addventure running ocncurrently, that's fine. This thing has a history and it would be folly to destroy it.

 

[DruulEmpire]

I agree, Chuckster.  It's a chronicle of sorts, and while it may be more therapy than literature we still feel an intimate bond to it.  Some of us have tried to do definitive things in the Addventure, and losing it would only urge us to try to compose our efforts all over again.

[Prophet_Tenebrae]

A 2nd addventure, using all those new fangled features would be rather super

[Ki]

Quote:
It's good to have articulate criticism / discussion about the Addventure here.  Keep it up.  I think that most criticism we've had in the past has been within the Addventure itself, which pisses more people off because (as you say) it's the wrong place to do it; because of that, people may have gotten into the habit of thinking all Addventure criticism is bad.

Sort-of related to this:  I think that one of the best features that could be added to the addventure (if people start adding features) would be a "comment" feature.  There could be a small-text link at very bottom of every episode, near where the author is:  "Click here to read or add comments on this episode (3 comments so far.)"  Just like they have on blogs and the like.  This would provide people with a valid place to gripe (outside this forum, which most addventures never know exists), without cluttering up the addventure itself for people who don't want to read comments; it would also give authors a place to get much-needed feedback, which might encourage more and better writing.  Additionally, the index could then list the most commented-on episodes, which would be interesting to see.

(And, while I'm on the subject, a counter for each episode that shows the number of times it's been viewed would be really cool.  Then authors have tangible evidence that people are reading what they write, even if there are no replies.  The index could in this case not only maintain a list of the most frequently-viewed episodes, but also a list of the most frequently-viewed episodes with open options, so people can check where the attention is and continue writing there.)

Ya-de-da, votes on which episodes we want to see continued, etc, etc, etc, I've said all this already and it's not like I'm going to implement it myself so I'll shut up now.  But it's worth keeping in mind.  

[Chuck]

Brilliant stuff, Ki. Those are the two best new features I've heard anyone propose.

[Kyrion]

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I don't know... letting people like me blow off steam without wrecking someone else's work (even if the part I'm annoyed it is someone else wrecking the work) seems like a pretty good reason to me.

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Ah, so <em>that's</em> where we disagree. I think that blowing off steam at someone else's expense never helps.

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<ul><li>I'm not familiar with the "Mr. Black" character that you use in several of your examples. I've seen a few episodes that referenced him (Usually in connection with Sharon), but I don't have enough of a grasp on the character to think about using him in an unrelated thread. I gather that he's a pretty stereotypical villain, though.
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What you just wrote, I think, demonstrates one of the pitfalls of a gripe session. You could write a perfectly good story where this isn't true. Would you write an angry letter to Cartoon Network complaining that there's just no way Superman could possibly keep his secret identity by putting on a pair of glasses?

In a superhero story, you don't even need a handwave; if you have a secret identity, no one recognizes you (and gets away to tell the tale). Mod edit to remove references to a m1nor. No content involving m1nors is allowed anywhere at the BEA including the Plume forum or Addventure itself. If anyone sees some, they should PM a forum mod IMMEDIATELY so it can be removed. Thank you. -Palomine

The episode you name was probably an oversight, but it is not a plot hole. You could take it and run with it in several interesting directions. This particular gripe is unjustified, and a vigilante thread-killing would be even more so.

By the way, Mr. Black is indeed a villain from the Addventure. He was in Adama's character index last I looked, but IIRC he first showed up as an evil businessman who did various unethical things to Sharon on her first day on the job, which is what brought him to mind.

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I think it's a good idea. Personally, I'd vote to leave the existing BEAddVenture intact and still working - there's some good shit in there, after all, and some ripe threads waiting for someone to develop them - alongside the new one. And I think that most of the suggestions made (adding new choices after the fact, allowing for author editing with limits, and so on) are good ideas. The only idea I don't agree with is the "Comments" section on each chapter. In places that I've seen things like that implemented, they often turn into rolling flamefests, even when useful commentary is offered.

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Gripe session threads on the Plume are no different, except that fewer people will read them and they're more likely to happen behind the author's back, giving him no chance to defend himself.

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If the majority of the regulars (or even a single Admin) wants me to shut the hell up, I'll do that. But I think that I can be a valuable voice here.

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Don't worry. No one will order you to shut the Hell up. I'm giving you some friendly advice: constructive criticism is more valuable than gripes.
    

[Nekojin]

Quote:

Ah, so <em>that's</em> where we disagree. I think that blowing off steam at someone else's expense never helps.

We disagree on several matters, I think, but hashing it out here is rather pointless - unless you're the person who wrote that chapter?

Quote:
This particular gripe is unjustified, and a vigilante thread-killing would be even more so.

Your insistence that my gripe is unjustified is just as biased as my insistence that the chapter is flawed. And putting words in my mouth (or inferring something that I didn't say) is worse. If I were to write one of the chapters off that one, it would be with the intention of bringing it back to the existing continuity - or, more accurately, my take on the continuity. Granted, the continuity for that storyline is rather minimal at this point, but it does exist. I wouldn't "kill the thread;" I feel that would be even more of a disservice to the project than people writing without the slightest clue about - or interest for - the continuity.

On a mostly-unrelated note, I'm rather pleased that my additions to a 6-month-inactive section has borne fruit - several people have followed up to my chapters in the AutoMorph plot thread. =^_^=

Nekojin  

[Chuck]

Let's get some more gripes going. 

[JH_]

Let's get some more gripes going. 

Clearly for the last eight years everything in the addventure has been perfect.

Of course we now have the comment feature (thanks again, Adama), but that's not suitable for a lengthy debate, so this thread could still serve a need.

[Benji Dude]

An option to edit our posts in the addventure would be nice, I keep spotting little grammer/ spelling mistakes on my posts and don't want to bother Adama with them all lol.

[Chuck]

An option to edit our posts in the addventure would be nice, I keep spotting little grammer/ spelling mistakes on my posts and don't want to bother Adama with them all lol.

I agree, great idea. It would also let me cover up continuity errors that happen when I want to extend a thread I haven't touched for eight years, and I'm too lazy to go back and read a bunch of back story.

[Adama]

How do we do that without letting other people edit your episodes too?  The idea of requiring authors to register has been suggested before, and been unpopular.

[Chuck]

How do we do that without letting other people edit your episodes too?  The idea of requiring authors to register has been suggested before, and been unpopular.

I'm okay with registering as long as its free!

[Benji Dude]

Maybe require a password to be created for each episode (set by the author).  They have to put in the password for any edits to be made.

I realise it'd be yet another field to filled in before a new episode is published but I wound't mind if it meant I could go back and fix mistakes.

Or, as another idea could the system use ip address as a means of making sure only the author (and yourself Adama of course) could make changes.

[Chuck]

Maybe require a password to be created for each episode (set by the author).  They have to put in the password for any edits to be made.

I realise it'd be yet another field to filled in before a new episode is published but I wound't mind if it meant I could go back and fix mistakes.

Or, as another idea could the system use ip address as a means of making sure only the author (and yourself Adama of course) could make changes.

Those ideas aren't bad at all.

[Benji Dude]

Yeah occationally my brain gets into gear and works.

[Adama]

Maybe require a password to be created for each episode (set by the author).  They have to put in the password for any edits to be made.

I realise it'd be yet another field to filled in before a new episode is published but I wound't mind if it meant I could go back and fix mistakes.

Or, as another idea could the system use ip address as a means of making sure only the author (and yourself Adama of course) could make changes.

Rather than a password for each episode, it would make more sense to create an optional registration with its own password.  Then you could just identify yourself (using your login password) when creating the episode, and then again if you want to edit it...


The IP address is an unreliable means for identifying a user; one person might submit from multiple IPs (especially if they use a laptop), and IPs that are shared by common ISPs could also be shared between authors.  I know the IP a lot of my episodes were submitted from is also commonly used by one other author, and I know we're not the same person.  

[JH_]

It might be possible to use cookies to make it so that only the author could edit an episode. (Strictly it would be anyone on the author's computer, I suppose.) I think that's how Extend-A-Story manages it. Of course, if people want to use more than one computer it wouldn't work well, but I would have thought that only a small minority would want to do that frequently.

[Chuck]

It might be possible to use cookies to make it so that only the author could edit an episode. (Strictly it would be anyone on the author's computer, I suppose.) I think that's how Extend-A-Story manages it. Of course, if people want to use more than one computer it wouldn't work well, but I would have thought that only a small minority would want to do that frequently.

I use at least four computers to write here.

[JH_]

I use at least four computers to write here.

If you want to do something like make a spelling correction, though, mostly you will spot the problem immediately after submitting the episode (at least if you are anything like me), in which case you will still be on the same computer.

[Chuck]

If you want to do something like make a spelling correction, though, mostly you will spot the problem immediately after submitting the episode (at least if you are anything like me), in which case you will still be on the same computer.

True.