*

NotElvis

  • F Cup
  • 490
Re: Depression
« Reply #30 on: February 24, 2015, 04:31:07 AM »
A little over a year after my last post on this . .  and I can say that, clearly, I'm a very slow learner.

On and off with her.  Again.  And again.  Things will change, she says, there will be an acknowledgement of her issues, etc... then the same pattern repeats.

Obviously, I let her do it.  I could've said no.   Or should've.  Didn't.

She ruined the week before Valentine's Day.  Also, Christmas day before that.  And my son's birthday a few months before that.  Countless other incidents of turning over a new leaf followed by blame, double standards, denial, blaming me for her **94**, insistence that I have to focus on my problems, deflection etc.

Hell, I even went to therapy, and the therapist (who'd seen both of us for a few sessions, then me solo) explained to me what personality issues/disorders he believes she has.  He also told me, on more than one occasion that:
- I made excuses for her (I tend to try to say "that's how I see it" and am hesitant when the other person can't give their "side")
- I was behaving no different than someone in an abusive relationship (which, when I'd say things out loud to him, I'd stop and say "I feel like such an idiot now that I'm saying this out loud")
- She is broken, and there is no possible way to fix her, especially when not only does she not want to be fixed, she doesn't even want to know that there's a problem.

And still.....

Well, after this, I'd say I'd never be open to her reaching out to me again.  Of course, I said that last time, and the time before that, and... etc.

I am slightly rambling.... maybe more than slightly rambling.

Here's the weird part - around autumn of 2014, we hadn't spoken in a while, and I actually didn't feel all that bad about it.  Both December 2014, and this month, she'd been even quicker to fall back into her old patterns, and more blatant/obvious about rewriting history, the double standards, etc.  All of what I said just over a year ago, but even more so.

Yet, somehow, while I was fine in the autumn, these last two incidents really struck me hard, and I don't really know why.  Enough that I'm having unsettling dreams (not necessarily involving her).  I have also had more dreams with her in them than I have ever had (I met her in April 2010).  Not always bad ones, but the thing is, it's unusual for me to have dreams with people I know well or am close to.

So, somehow, I am unable to evict her from that place in my head.  It'll happen eventually.  But for now, she's firmly lodged in there.  No idea why.

I guess that proves what they say when they say: "Nobody really understands how the brain works."

I'm tempted to see if I can get a prescription for antidepressants, but my previous experience with them was pretty atrocious.  I'd prefer to avoid them.

*

Robin_K

  • A Cup
  • 1813
Re: Depression
« Reply #31 on: February 24, 2015, 02:31:39 PM »
Countless other incidents of turning over a new leaf followed by blame, double standards, denial, blaming me for her **94**, insistence that I have to focus on my problems, deflection etc.

[ . . . ]  I'm tempted to see if I can get a prescription for antidepressants, but my previous experience with them was pretty atrocious.

Thank you for telling us all this. I'm glad that you feel comfortable sharing your feelings and problems here. You raise many issues.

Besides my depression problems, I'm a recovering alcoholic, so your account of her behavior rings many bells. Unfortunately, what you've been going through is common in relationships with an alcoholic. I strongly suggest that you try an Al-Anon meeting. That is an organization for those affected by the behavior of alcoholics. You're free to attend and say nothing, only listen. I think you'll find it helpful to hear similar stories and know that you are not alone -- and that there are ways out of this.

First all, you have to give up on the idea of helping her or fixing her. “Codependency” is a buzzword, but your description practically defines it. You may wish to learn more about it. In a sense – a very real and sad sense – you may have allowed her to continue being alcoholic, by staying in the relationship, trying to smooth things over, and so on. We alcoholics often speak of “finding our bottom” before getting better. That is, things have to become so bad for us that we finally commit to change. (Many alcoholics also suffer depression; there’s some debate as to whether we are “self-medicating.”)

The important thing right now is to focus on YOU. She has made you ill. Period. It’s allowed to be “selfish” right now (it isn’t really selfish at all) to concentrate on yourself, and become healthy again. Again, Al-Anon is a good step. So is therapy, and I’m glad you’ve been open to that. (Often there are paired A.A. and Al-Anon meetings so that couples can go together. I’d save that for down the road, once you’ve become more familiar with Al-Anon. You cannot force her to go to A.A., but you can explain to her how much help you’ve already (hopefully) found in Al-Anon and ask her to try A.A.

But again, that’s down the road. She needs to realize that she must change – or else. Staying in the relationship takes away one “or else.”  She needs to realize that there are consequences if she continues this way.

Sadly, alcoholism is a progressive disease. She will get worse and worse. Everything else I tell you is just my advice, but that is a fact: she will get worse

I understand your concern about antidepressants. I was on Prozac and damn near died. There are many newer drugs, and in my experience it has taken several different attempts with several different drugs in several different dosages. (And these dosages, for me, change throughout the year; winter is rugged for me.)

Finally, as we say in A.A., “take what you want and leave the rest.” If any of the above is helpful, great! If not, just set it aside.

Please post more – and often! We’re all pulling for you.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2015, 02:34:27 PM by Robin_K »

*

Palomine

  • Moderator
  • 24116
  • Modern Male Mammal, Linux enthusiast.
Re: Depression
« Reply #32 on: February 25, 2015, 04:54:48 AM »
Meditation in combination with hatha yoga (which is easy and gentle) are good, especially if you're suffering from depression with anxiety. Other things are so simple that they never occur to many people: buy a bowlful of fruit or flowers every week and put them where you'll see them often; get a pet; go outside and walk, etc. If you're stuck inside, find a window and sit in a sunbeam.

Perhaps most importantly, pay as little attention to the news media as you can afford to. People weren't designed to shoulder the burdens of the whole world. Two hundred years ago, all a person had to cope with was bad news from his/her own family and a few friends and neighbors. Today, mass media make it possible for you to feel the suffering of millions of people, and there's usually not a damned thing you can do to help them. That can a powerful depressant. Shutting out big chunks of the world may seem like willful ignorance/insensitivity, but if you're not prepared to confront the harsher aspects of existence on a daily basis, it's purely a survival strategy. It's fine to be vaguely aware that many people are suffering, and to wish better lives for them, but there's little to be gained from seeing their desperation in high definition.

Namaste,
_
g

Despite the fact that I'm stubbornly not the meditation/yoga type, all of that sounds like excellent advice to me. The attached photo contains two suggested aids (I thought that was a papaya or something, but the filename says veg, so maybe just 1.5 suggested aids). :)
« Last Edit: February 25, 2015, 04:56:42 AM by Palomine »

*

NotElvis

  • F Cup
  • 490
Re: Depression
« Reply #33 on: March 17, 2015, 04:20:24 PM »
Robin_K

Thanks for the info - I haven't logged in in a bit, so this is belated, but I do want to thank you.

Interestingly, a friend of mine who is also a recovering alcoholic spoke (hasn't had a drink in years) with her.  He said that, while he's not qualified to judge, his guess is that she's as near as 100% as he's confident in saying.  He goes on occasion to a meeting, and did mention (some time back) that I might find something of interest (I haven't gone yet) - I'll have to ask if it's an A.A. only, or also Al-Anon group.  He invited her go to, and after about 3 attempts with her having some reason why she couldn't make it, dropped it.  I'd offered to go with her or not go, whichever she was more comfortable with.

She skipped **94** for a week.  That was proof that she didn't have a problem, as she explained it to me.

I'd also read an article about addiction (written by an alcoholic after he'd been a few years without **94**), and it went into a lot of the other behaviors that are typical (like getting bored easily, etc) that seemed to fit her to a T.

**94**-wise, she may have hit bottom at one point - she may have bounced away from it a little.  I know that once, I BARELY heard the slight noise it makes... then I found myself holding her head up out of the blankets so that she didn't almost drown in a pool of her own **113**.

That only happened once.  I imagine that for most people, they don't live for it to happen a second time.  It was a shock to me in a surreal way, how quiet and gentle such vomiting is.  I almost did NOT notice it, and probably would've found a corpse the next morning.  One Ambien plus a half-liter (maybe slightly more) of vodka in the course of about 2 hours.

I didn't know that, if they pass out, you're supposed to have them hospitalized.  I didn't know that, in that condition, they're not likely to let you out without talking about substance abuse.

She woke up the next morning and went to a job interview, with no trouble.

To hear her say it, she drinks less now.  She always seems to drink less.  Admittedly, the last time she said that, we went to a bar (to play pool) and she ordered a beer, and I guess the bartender knew her already because before she said she wanted a beer, the bartender asked "Double shot of tequila?"

Maybe she'll find a lower bottom.  I don't know.  Lower than "nearly died" seems an unlikely place to find and still be able to come back.  Someone at 43 shouldn't be making excuses why it's ok to drive when smashed "when it's only a mile down the road" or come up with a reason why it's ok to mix your own bottle of vodka and OJ, drink it while driving to the city, because "They don't let you drink in the parking lot, and the drinks at the club are too expensive".  Oddly, even while sober, she defended these behaviors for a while before gradually saying that, yes, those were incredibly bad ideas.

I wish I could say that the **94** was the ONLY problem.  It's not.  My therapist was pretty convinced that she has Narcissistic Personality Disorder and/or Borderline Personality Disorder.  I did some research, and found the four "Cluster B" disorders.
- Antisocial (not the same as Asocial, which is actually what most people think of when they say Antisocial)
- Borderline
- Histrionic
- Narcissistic

Having gone through all the symptoms of all four of them combined, I find only a few that she does NOT exhibit.


Given how long things were going south, and how badly the "up and down" and "on again, off again" relationship was with her, I wonder why I still am open to contact with her.


Well, I know why.  Two reasons:
1 - Because, despite her problems, there really was a good side to her (that the bad side seemed hell-bent on murdering and burying)
2 - Because (as you have succinctly put it) I am ill.  I didn't think of it that way before, and it's an eye opener.


I really appreciate your insight into this.  I do have to do something.  I'll probably avoid the medication, but I'll have to hit Al-Anon or a therapist.  Possibly both.

*

Robin_K

  • A Cup
  • 1813
Re: Depression
« Reply #34 on: March 17, 2015, 05:26:20 PM »

- Antisocial (not the same as Asocial, which is actually what most people think of when they say Antisocial)
- Borderline
- Histrionic
- Narcissistic

More soon -- I'm on my way out -- but these are all classic characteristics of an alcoholic. We are very self-centered. But we can and do get better, if we work at our sobriety (which is a very different thing from merely "not **94**").

Yes, a new bottom can always be found. Unfortunately.

*

pedonbio

  • Oh My God Cup
  • 23055
Re: Depression
« Reply #35 on: March 18, 2015, 12:36:16 AM »
The idea of going to a meeting can be intimidating. I remember that it was for me 35 years ago. I suggest you go to a few, just sit there, and listen. There really isn't much difference between open AA meetings and Al-Anon meetings.

And you'll pick up some aphorisms: If I'm a **93** horse thief, and I quit **94**, I still have to work on finding a way to quit stealing horses.

Regarding the personality disorder business, if you're using DSM-IV or DSM-V, somewhere in the introductory section there is a warning that a clinician can't make an accurate diagnosis so long as the patient is actively alcoholic or addicted.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2015, 12:41:41 AM by pedonbio »
Someday, chi1dren, this entire fuck-up will be yours.

*

NotElvis

  • F Cup
  • 490
Re: Depression
« Reply #36 on: March 27, 2015, 12:04:43 AM »
I'll definitely talk to my friend about Al-Anon.


Well, sadly, I can't 100% break the ties only because there's a Promissory Note, and a significant amount of money involved.  She owes it to me.  Not an amount I can just easily dismiss as a loss.  Shouldn't have been a problem, everything was agreed to.  Unfortunately, there's no penalty clause for late payments, nor any interest.  Just to repay it.

Of course, there were previous ones that were signed and never quite followed.

So, one payment in, and then there's a reason why the second payment can't be made.  Then the third payment was being "held" until I sent her a copy of a spreadsheet that outlined what was owed (even though she'd had that before in August, and NOTHING in the PM allows for holding payments).

Now, she wants to make the initial payments smaller, draw it out longer, and wants to remove a certain amount from the total (about 7%) for an item that she claims "was not a loan"

Of course the email talked about being fair to both parties financially, and putting neither at a disadvantage.

Of course, the long and short of it is, take that certain amount off, and agree to the payments, or we have to go to court.  Naturally.  Because this was about negotiating what was fair to BOTH parties.  Supposedly.

So who knows?  My next question might well be:  Is there a legal expert in the house?


pedonbio:
Interesting that you mention that aspect about not being able to diagnose an alcoholic while they're still actively an addict.  It sounds related to something that he told me, albeit tangentally, about the EC/EM dynamic (Emotional Caretaker/Emotional Manipulator).  One of the points was that couples' counseling might be contra-indicated due to the counseling generally meant to address both peoples' issues, and the EM being able to twist things very easily.  I know I have a printout around here somewhere, but your comments make me wonder how tied in the Addict personality and Emotional Manipulator aspect are.

*

Robin_K

  • A Cup
  • 1813
Re: Depression
« Reply #37 on: April 23, 2015, 02:37:13 PM »
I learned this morning that a cousin has commited suicide. He shot himself. That's all we know at the moment. We're all pretty upset.

Please be sensitive to friends and family who may be giving off warning signs.

*

NotElvis

  • F Cup
  • 490
Re: Depression
« Reply #38 on: May 05, 2015, 04:20:09 AM »
Sorry to hear it...

It's hard to see the signs, though.  The ones who actually are most depressed and most prone to suicide hide their feelings on it...  at least, that's what I've read.  I am NOT, by any stretch of the imagination, an expert on the subject.

*

Robin_K

  • A Cup
  • 1813
Re: Depression
« Reply #39 on: August 13, 2015, 10:55:12 PM »
Bumping this thread to bring it to the attention of new members, and to anyone else who may need a friendly ear. Feel free to share if you're having a rough time.

*

Ninjaturtle

  • XXX Cup
  • 1760
Re: Depression
« Reply #40 on: February 17, 2016, 06:21:51 PM »
I've been diagnosed with severe depression and generalized anxiety disorder since about 2011. I take paxil. It works great but I also like to drink and when I drink I get stupid depressed. Usually ends with me cutting myself a lot.

Haven't done that in over a year though.

*

SwitcherX

  • ZZZ Cup
  • 6564
Re: Depression
« Reply #41 on: February 18, 2016, 03:43:59 AM »
Try N-A-C.
Switcher X
A.K.A. Tina Fey Eichmann

"Thank you herr professor Tina Fey Eichmann, nuclear brain surgeon and moustache jockey."
-- Mammeister


"SwitcherX, you were always Mammeister's favorite...you bastard."
-- Notty

*

Robin_K

  • A Cup
  • 1813
Re: Depression
« Reply #42 on: February 20, 2016, 01:39:14 AM »
It works great but I also like to drink and when I drink I get stupid depressed.

Alcohol really, really messes with antidepressants. Best avoided altogether -- though I wish I could say that I've never self-medicated with alcohol.

This is a rough time of year for lots of us. Spring is still far away, and we'er stuck gray, dirty snow and mud, short days . . . I find that exercise helps a LOT.

*

Ninjaturtle

  • XXX Cup
  • 1760
Re: Depression
« Reply #43 on: February 21, 2016, 04:12:29 PM »
the weather doesn't bother me at all but right now my long-time gf who I live with, but technically am not dating, is desperately trying to seduce a coworker of hers. younger and wealthier than me.

*

Robin_K

  • A Cup
  • 1813
Re: Depression
« Reply #44 on: February 24, 2016, 07:53:06 PM »
If you've spoken about this, and she has persisted, I think one of you has to move out. No question about it. Unless you have an open relationship, she has to choose.

I had a relationship sort of like this once. We'd break up everytime she met someone "better," that wouldn't last, and we'd get back together. I wound up having a pretty complete breakdown from the anxiety. But I had allowed this behavior. I put up with it. I played her game.

No wonder you're depressed.