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Robin_K

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Revelations of sexual harrassment
« on: November 30, 2017, 09:11:28 PM »
This is not about specific allegations about behavior of specific people. I want to look at the larger issue. Perhaps I've been naive, but it's now very clear that rude, boorish behavior is much more common than I ever could have imagined. And then allegations of assault on top of it?

All of us here are interested in the female form. That's a given. However, I would hope that none of us greet women visitors naked, or in an open robe, or offer/demand massages, or masturbate in front of acquaintances or work partners -- or any of the fantastically inappropriate behavior that comes up again and again, merely with changes of famous name.

Again, I don't want to get into specific cases. But in general, what the hell is going on with such men? I don't get it. What sort of orgasmic thrill comes from being such a jerk?

Is this a sort of brain-wiring that I missed out on? Hey, I like kink -- as  play in a trusting relationship. But reports of these ambush attacks -- I do not understand it. Do they need to dominate women? Validate their sexuality? Tiny c-cks? Psychotic -- complete lack of empathy? Is it some sort of mental disease?

Some days I honestly just can't read the news. Other days I want to throw up. Yet other days I want to take some of these gentlemen in a dark alley with a baseball bat. Hold him for me while I take good aim? 

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TheZookie007

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Re: Revelations of sexual harrassment
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2017, 09:31:45 PM »
The thing to remember here is that no matter the sex of the victim and no matter the sex of the victimizer, sexual harassment is not about sex. It's about power. The power of a person ordering another person into giving them a massage, because otherwise the first person will have the second person fired. The power of a person inviting a second person into an "interview" while wearing nothing but a loosely-tied bathrobe, knowing that if the second person said anything, they would be disbelieved if the second person told. And so on. It's because the creeps think they have that power, and they think they can wield that power in any way they like, and they think that they are above the law and cannot be stopped or held to account. And because the victims (most of whom, but by all means not all of whom, are women) are blamed, or disbelieved, or diminished, or slandered when they speak up. Just ask Anita Hill or Robin Givens.

The structural power dynamics of our society needs to be addressed, because this kind of sexual harassment is a symptom, not the disease per se. Otherwise we will continue to be living in a society where a serial sexual harasser is caught on tape bragging about it, and he ends up in the highest office in the land anyway.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2017, 09:35:22 PM by TheZookie007 »
"When your city is French in origin, and your Mayor and Governor are Democrats, and those most affected by this natural disaster are Black, don't expect much help from Bush." -- Left of Y'all (and the link works now too! )

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rtpoe

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Re: Revelations of sexual harrassment
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2017, 02:33:00 AM »
I'm really conflicted over the whole mishegas.

Yes, the creeps do need to suffer the consequences of their creepiness.

But, I'm worried.

What happens with the vast majority of guys who are decent men who are going to be seen as complicit just because they are men?

How far back are things going to be dredged up? Senator Al Franken's being accused of a couple of gropes from almost ten years ago. But none of his colleagues and co-workers today have anything to say against him. Is he going to be forced out over those old incidents? Can't we let people grow and change and learn? True, some things cannot be forgotten or forgiven. But when a guy clearly shows that he's not the same guy anymore?

Much of this is being done in the media, without even the least bit of the usual legal standards for evidence and the rights of the accused. I'm going to list a couple of names; see if you can tell what the connection is:

Emma Sulkowicz
Crystal Gail Mangum
Victoria Price and Ruby Bates
Carolyn Bryant

They aren't technically equivalent, but there is a commonality. The last thing anyone should want is for the #MeToo movement to turn into a witch hunt. One commenter suggested the possibility that the Men In Power will be so worried about the chance for false accusations coming out of misunderstandings (what constitutes sexual harassment? Assault? Unwonted sexual conduct? One person's hug is another person's grope. There's no standard definition here!) and ruining careers that they might decide the best way to deal with it is by keeping women out of the Inner Circle of power altogether.

It shouldn't come to that. But let's be careful and rational, OK?
rtpoe

How like a winter hath my absence been
From thee, the pleasure of the fleeting year!
What freezings have I felt, what dark days seen?
What old December's bareness every where!

William Shakespeare, Sonnet 97

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TheZookie007

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Re: Revelations of sexual harrassment
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2017, 03:39:57 AM »
I'm really conflicted over the whole mishegas.

Yes, the creeps do need to suffer the consequences of their creepiness.

But, I'm worried.

What happens with the vast majority of guys who are decent men who are going to be seen as complicit just because they are men?


It's a valid fear -- and one of the reasons you have that fear is that you are a decent man, and one who knows the difference between sexual harassment and other normal interactions with people of the opposite sex. Just like the vast majority of people.

Men in power circling the wagons and strengthening the glass ceiling, to continue preventing women from rising in the ranks, as a result of more and more of them being exposed in this way? Yes, it's a definite possibility. But I think that the tide has turned somewhat. There's shit you could do ten or twenty years ago that now would be roundly condemned. I don't think that's going to change, or that we are going to revert to those Mad Men-era ideas, no matter how hard such men try. I may be unreasonably optimistic there, though.

By the way, the "Me Too" campaign predates the current revival of it in hashtag form by a full decade. It was created by a black woman named Tarana Burke, who created the campaign as a grass-roots movement to reach sexual ass ault survivors in underprivileged communities. As she told Ebony Magazine:

“It wasn’t built to be a viral campaign or a hashtag that is here today and forgotten tomorrow. It was a catchphrase to be used from survivor to survivor to let folks know that they were not alone and that a movement for radical healing was happening and possible.”
"When your city is French in origin, and your Mayor and Governor are Democrats, and those most affected by this natural disaster are Black, don't expect much help from Bush." -- Left of Y'all (and the link works now too! )

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andrat2000

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Re: Revelations of sexual harrassment
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2017, 07:41:01 AM »
Point is I am probably quilty of this, too.

Simple as that I have a fetish, a fetisch over big fake boobs. And I like plastic surgery, lips, booty, feather lift, filler .... everything that enhances (for me) esthetically a woman. I like good make-up. I like to some extend (not to the extreme) the barbie look ...

If I ever talk about this to a woman and I would say it would be great on her I am already guilty. How can we live our fetish under this conditions?

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ikari

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Re: Revelations of sexual harrassment
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2017, 09:08:01 PM »
I'm really conflicted over the whole mishegas.

Yes, the creeps do need to suffer the consequences of their creepiness.

But, I'm worried.

What happens with the vast majority of guys who are decent men who are going to be seen as complicit just because they are men?

The "vast majority of guys who are decent men" are complicit. When we don't check our fathers, brothers, uncles, cousins, friends, neighbors and co-workers on their behavior, then we're complicit.

Quote
How far back are things going to be dredged up?

Who cares? I feel like a better question to ask is, why do you feel like there should be a statute of limitations on this?

Quote
Can't we let people grow and change and learn?
You tell us: does letting people "grow and change and learn" have to necessarily be synonymous with letting them off the hook?


Quote
Much of this is being done in the media, without even the least bit of the usual legal standards for evidence and the rights of the accused. I'm going to list a couple of names; see if you can tell what the connection is:

Emma Sulkowicz
Crystal Gail Mangum
Victoria Price and Ruby Bates
Carolyn Bryant

They aren't technically equivalent, but there is a commonality. The last thing anyone should want is for the #MeToo movement to turn into a witch hunt.
No, the last thing anyone should want here is for it to revert back to where victims of sexual harassment and sexual assault feel like they can't come forward, because they won't be believed... which is pretty much how it was for the majority of victims of sexual harassment and sexual assault, prior to the #MeToo movement.

Quote
One commenter suggested the possibility that the Men In Power will be so worried about the chance for false accusations coming out of misunderstandings (what constitutes sexual harassment? Assault? Unwonted sexual conduct? One person's hug is another person's grope. There's no standard definition here!) and ruining careers that they might decide the best way to deal with it is by keeping women out of the Inner Circle of power altogether.

A better way to deal with it might be to remove those men from power, and give somebody else a shot.

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TheZookie007

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Re: Revelations of sexual harrassment
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2017, 09:56:17 PM »
Point is I am probably quilty of this, too.

Simple as that I have a fetish, a fetisch over big fake boobs. And I like plastic surgery, lips, booty, feather lift, filler .... everything that enhances (for me) esthetically a woman. I like good make-up. I like to some extend (not to the extreme) the barbie look ...

If I ever talk about this to a woman and I would say it would be great on her I am already guilty. How can we live our fetish under this conditions?

No, you are not "guilty of sexual harassment" in that case. Not even close. Don't conflate having a "sexual fetish" with "sexual harassment".
"When your city is French in origin, and your Mayor and Governor are Democrats, and those most affected by this natural disaster are Black, don't expect much help from Bush." -- Left of Y'all (and the link works now too! )

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gonZo

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Re: Revelations of sexual harrassment
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2017, 11:44:04 PM »
Point is I am probably quilty of this, too.

Simple as that I have a fetish, a fetisch over big fake boobs. And I like plastic surgery, lips, booty, feather lift, filler .... everything that enhances (for me) esthetically a woman. I like good make-up. I like to some extend (not to the extreme) the barbie look ...

If I ever talk about this to a woman and I would say it would be great on her I am already guilty. How can we live our fetish under this conditions?

No, you are not "guilty of sexual harassment" in that case. Not even close. Don't conflate having a "sexual fetish" with "sexual harassment".

...Unless you're talking about it to a woman who works in a subordinate job to yours. In that situation, you can't judge whether the woman is willing to talk about it, or if she's only cooperating because she's afraid she'll be penalized if she doesn't.

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gonZo

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Re: Revelations of sexual harrassment
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2017, 11:52:50 PM »
One commenter suggested the possibility that the Men In Power will be so worried about the chance for false accusations coming out of misunderstandings (what constitutes sexual harassment? Assault? Unwonted sexual conduct? One person's hug is another person's grope. There's no standard definition here!) and ruining careers that they might decide the best way to deal with it is by keeping women out of the Inner Circle of power altogether.

That's just another way to punish women for the actions and thoughts of men. "Some men's careers might be ruined, so let's definitely ruin a bunch of women's careers." That reasoning isn't reasonable.

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TheZookie007

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Re: Revelations of sexual harrassment
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2017, 01:48:35 AM »
Point is I am probably quilty of this, too.

Simple as that I have a fetish, a fetisch over big fake boobs. And I like plastic surgery, lips, booty, feather lift, filler .... everything that enhances (for me) esthetically a woman. I like good make-up. I like to some extend (not to the extreme) the barbie look ...

If I ever talk about this to a woman and I would say it would be great on her I am already guilty. How can we live our fetish under this conditions?

No, you are not "guilty of sexual harassment" in that case. Not even close. Don't conflate having a "sexual fetish" with "sexual harassment".

...Unless you're talking about it to a woman who works in a subordinate job to yours. In that situation, you can't judge whether the woman is willing to talk about it, or if she's only cooperating because she's afraid she'll be penalized if she doesn't.

Yes, of course -- I took what andrat2000 was talking about to mean that he wasn't at work at the time, and that the woman in question wasn't his work colleague/subordinate. Otherwise HELL YEAH THAT WOULD BE HARASSMENT.


That's just another way to punish women for the actions and thoughts of men. "Some men's careers might be ruined, so let's definitely ruin a bunch of women's careers." That reasoning isn't reasonable.

Indeed.

Also, I have tried to be gender-neutral in this discussion, since even though most of the sexual harassment cases we have heard about have been heterosexual and with a male antagonist and a female victim, that is not to say that all sexual harassment cases have that same dynamic. For instance, as far as I'm concerned, any female teacher of elementary or secondary school who tries one on on their charges e.g. Mary Kay Letourneau, is guilty of sexual harassment at best, and of out-and-out statutory rhymes-with-tape at worst.   
"When your city is French in origin, and your Mayor and Governor are Democrats, and those most affected by this natural disaster are Black, don't expect much help from Bush." -- Left of Y'all (and the link works now too! )

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andrat2000

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Re: Revelations of sexual harrassment
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2017, 09:53:52 AM »
Point is I am probably quilty of this, too.

Simple as that I have a fetish, a fetisch over big fake boobs. And I like plastic surgery, lips, booty, feather lift, filler .... everything that enhances (for me) esthetically a woman. I like good make-up. I like to some extend (not to the extreme) the barbie look ...

If I ever talk about this to a woman and I would say it would be great on her I am already guilty. How can we live our fetish under this conditions?

No, you are not "guilty of sexual harassment" in that case. Not even close. Don't conflate having a "sexual fetish" with "sexual harassment".

...Unless you're talking about it to a woman who works in a subordinate job to yours. In that situation, you can't judge whether the woman is willing to talk about it, or if she's only cooperating because she's afraid she'll be penalized if she doesn't.

Yes, of course -- I took what andrat2000 was talking about to mean that he wasn't at work at the time, and that the woman in question wasn't his work colleague/subordinate. Otherwise HELL YEAH THAT WOULD BE HARASSMENT.


That's just another way to punish women for the actions and thoughts of men. "Some men's careers might be ruined, so let's definitely ruin a bunch of women's careers." That reasoning isn't reasonable.

Indeed.

Also, I have tried to be gender-neutral in this discussion, since even though most of the sexual harassment cases we have heard about have been heterosexual and with a male antagonist and a female victim, that is not to say that all sexual harassment cases have that same dynamic. For instance, as far as I'm concerned, any female teacher of elementary or secondary school who tries one on on their charges e.g. Mary Kay Letourneau, is guilty of sexual harassment at best, and of out-and-out statutory rhymes-with-tape at worst.

At work I wouldn't do it at all, anyway. No matter if on same level, higher up or down ...
To dangerous. I was speaking in general.

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gonZo

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Re: Revelations of sexual harrassment
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2017, 09:50:58 PM »
At work I wouldn't do it at all, anyway. No matter if on same level, higher up or down ...
To dangerous. I was speaking in general.

Right, context matters. Saying something about sex to a woman you just met in a bar is quite different than saying it to a co-worker at your job. As rtpoe pointed out at the top of the thread, harassment is about power. If there's no established power dynamic in the situation, the question of harassment becomes subjective.

And sex is just one angle from which harassment can be applied. Ridicule, verbal or physical antagonism, threats, social ostracism, gaslighting, and rumor-mongering are all forms of harassment that aren't necessarily sexual. But men think about sex all the time, so that's the form it most often takes.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2017, 11:22:58 PM by gonZo »

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gonZo

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Re: Revelations of sexual harrassment
« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2017, 11:21:27 PM »
Also, I have tried to be gender-neutral in this discussion, since even though most of the sexual harassment cases we have heard about have been heterosexual and with a male antagonist and a female victim, that is not to say that all sexual harassment cases have that same dynamic. For instance, as far as I'm concerned, any female teacher of elementary or secondary school who tries one on on their charges e.g. Mary Kay Letourneau, is guilty of sexual harassment at best, and of out-and-out statutory rhymes-with-tape at worst.

That's one of the few variations in sexual abuse scenarios that I think is clear-cut. Abuse is abuse regardless of the genders of the aggressor and victim.

What I find fascinating about the current wave of public sexual abuse/harassment accusations is society's (social and mainstream media's) attempts to decide how condemnation and/or redemption might be earned or given. Do we add and subtract "points" based on an alleged abuser's reaction to being accused? On the number of accusers? On the severity of the transgressions? On the palpability of the evidence?

Al Franken was caught red-handed, photographed groping Leann Tweeden, but he immediately admitted his misdeeds, apologized, expressed remorse, and asked the senate ethics committee to evaluate his conduct. Does he deserve more or less punishment or forgiveness than Roy Moore, whose alleged transgressions are arguably more sinister than Franken's, but who denies everything and calls his accusers unpatriotic liars in a conspiracy against him? There's far more informal evidence against Moore than Franken, but it's not as concrete as Tweeden's photograph.

And Moore's denial is problematic, because if he's lying, he's abusing his accusers again.

Would Franken be less remorseful if he were not caught red-handed? Would Moore be more remorseful if he were caught red-handed? In this scenario, remorse signifies guilt, but lack of remorse doesn't signify innocence.

Should it matter that Moore's alleged abuses occurred in a state so backward that his openly paedophiliac behavior at the time was regarded as little more than an inconvenient quirk? And should it matter that his condemnation or forgiveness will be decided by voters who might still regard his behavior as "odd but tolerable" even today?

I don't have answers, but they're damned interesting questions.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2017, 12:14:58 AM by gonZo »

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rtpoe

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Re: Revelations of sexual harrassment
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2017, 01:26:24 AM »
Well, if you equate two or three or four casual gropes with over a dozen instances of lechery directed at ladies who are too young to be the objects of such lechery, you've got problems.

We MUST NOT conflate ALL instances of harassment / assault into the same level of badness. Stealing a few items from a store and hacking millions from a bank are technically both theft, but no one in their right mind would treat them in the same manner.

Squeezing a woman's butt in a photo op is NOT the same as showing your penis to an underling and demanding that she go down on you or hitting on a teenaged girl and placing her hand on your junk.
rtpoe

How like a winter hath my absence been
From thee, the pleasure of the fleeting year!
What freezings have I felt, what dark days seen?
What old December's bareness every where!

William Shakespeare, Sonnet 97

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andrat2000

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Re: Revelations of sexual harrassment
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2017, 10:25:21 PM »
Well, if you equate two or three or four casual gropes with over a dozen instances of lechery directed at ladies who are too young to be the objects of such lechery, you've got problems.

We MUST NOT conflate ALL instances of harassment / assault into the same level of badness. Stealing a few items from a store and hacking millions from a bank are technically both theft, but no one in their right mind would treat them in the same manner.

Squeezing a woman's butt in a photo op is NOT the same as showing your penis to an underling and demanding that she go down on you or hitting on a teenaged girl and placing her hand on your junk.
in respect of the latest (just short before) circumstances ... and before this thread is de-rallied by individuals smoke grenades rather than actually providing a real dicussion between grown ups ... I have to point out in my fullest seriousness and candor :

I think you forgot that it depends on political orientation and only political orientation, no matter what the offender actually did. If you write about "over a dozen instances of lechery directed at ladies who are too young to be the objects of such lechery," and the offender is of GOP, everything is fine it is "just accusations and no evidence". If "two or three or four casual gropes" comes from a liberal, it is like Lucifer personally is climbing to earth surface slaying and mowing through human mankind.

So frustrating and disturbing and quick frankly, so pathetic. Pathetic how people try so damn hard to subtlety defend their political party.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2017, 10:41:21 PM by andrat2000 »