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gonZo

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Re: Revelations of sexual harrassment
« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2017, 05:25:07 AM »
Question for everyone:
SHOULD THE CLEARLY POLITICIZED POSTS BE MOVED FROM THIS THREAD INTO THE POLITICS THREAD?

We seemed to be having a serious discussion about sociological (and anthropological) implications of the changing gender dynamics in the US, and I'm concerned that it's turning into another overblown liberal-v-conservative accusa-palooza. I think the politically-motivated double-standards accusations are irrelevant to the core issue, and I wonder how the rest of you feel about it.

If the majority would prefer an unpoliticized discussion, I can move the political posts into the politics thread. (I would move my long post with them, because I made the mistake of contrasting the offenses and reactions of Franken and Moore. I didn't make the comparison for political reasons, but I should have chosen non-politicians as examples.)

Please let me know what you think, here or in PMs.

Thanks,

gonZo
« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 05:26:50 AM by gonZo »

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ikari

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Re: Revelations of sexual harrassment
« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2017, 04:57:00 PM »
Question for everyone:
SHOULD THE CLEARLY POLITICIZED POSTS BE MOVED FROM THIS THREAD INTO THE POLITICS THREAD?

We seemed to be having a serious discussion about sociological (and anthropological) implications of the changing gender dynamics in the US, and I'm concerned that it's turning into another overblown liberal-v-conservative accusa-palooza. I think the politically-motivated double-standards accusations are irrelevant to the core issue, and I wonder how the rest of you feel about it.

If the majority would prefer an unpoliticized discussion, I can move the political posts into the politics thread. (I would move my long post with them, because I made the mistake of contrasting the offenses and reactions of Franken and Moore. I didn't make the comparison for political reasons, but I should have chosen non-politicians as examples.)

Please let me know what you think, here or in PMs.

Thanks,

gonZo

My two cents: the "politically-motivated double-standards accusations" are only relevant to the people who want this discussion to be about something other than empathy and sympathy for the victims of sexual harassment, and holding harassers accountable. #Whataboutism is a hell of a drug.

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andrat2000

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Re: Revelations of sexual harrassment
« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2017, 11:23:49 PM »
Question for everyone:
SHOULD THE CLEARLY POLITICIZED POSTS BE MOVED FROM THIS THREAD INTO THE POLITICS THREAD?

We seemed to be having a serious discussion about sociological (and anthropological) implications of the changing gender dynamics in the US, and I'm concerned that it's turning into another overblown liberal-v-conservative accusa-palooza. I think the politically-motivated double-standards accusations are irrelevant to the core issue, and I wonder how the rest of you feel about it.

If the majority would prefer an unpoliticized discussion, I can move the political posts into the politics thread. (I would move my long post with them, because I made the mistake of contrasting the offenses and reactions of Franken and Moore. I didn't make the comparison for political reasons, but I should have chosen non-politicians as examples.)

Please let me know what you think, here or in PMs.

Thanks,

gonZo

That was the reason why I posted what I last posted in my own way to reflect things back. In real life I'm a very ironic to sarcastic person ... And I am a big fan of political cabaret.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 11:29:04 PM by andrat2000 »

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andrat2000

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Re: Revelations of sexual harrassment
« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2017, 11:31:49 PM »
Question for everyone:
SHOULD THE CLEARLY POLITICIZED POSTS BE MOVED FROM THIS THREAD INTO THE POLITICS THREAD?

We seemed to be having a serious discussion about sociological (and anthropological) implications of the changing gender dynamics in the US, and I'm concerned that it's turning into another overblown liberal-v-conservative accusa-palooza. I think the politically-motivated double-standards accusations are irrelevant to the core issue, and I wonder how the rest of you feel about it.

If the majority would prefer an unpoliticized discussion, I can move the political posts into the politics thread. (I would move my long post with them, because I made the mistake of contrasting the offenses and reactions of Franken and Moore. I didn't make the comparison for political reasons, but I should have chosen non-politicians as examples.)

Please let me know what you think, here or in PMs.

Thanks,

gonZo

My two cents: the "politically-motivated double-standards accusations" are only relevant to the people who want this discussion to be about something other than empathy and sympathy for the victims of sexual harassment, and holding harassers accountable. #Whataboutism is a hell of a drug.

Agreement to 200%

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rtpoe

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Re: Revelations of sexual harrassment
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2017, 01:15:19 AM »
Well, when the current names at the top of the list are political figures, it's kind of hard to separate things.

I know I might come across as a Defender of Democrats here, but I'd say it's only because the only person worth speaking up for (Franken) is a Democrat. If a Republican did something similar, I would still call for the same sanity.

Matt Lauer? Charlie Rose? Garrison Keillor? Yeah, they deserved to be let go. Good luck with the job search!
Conyers? Repay the settlement out of your own pocket, finish your term, and don't let the door hit you on the way out.

I'm very concerned that this is going to become a witch hunt, with all accusations, no matter how spurious, being treated as the gospel truth and used to condemn people without even the most basic standards of fairness. How about we start with no anonymous accusations? I'm willing to take what you have to say seriously, so put your name on it, OK?
rtpoe

How like a winter hath my absence been
From thee, the pleasure of the fleeting year!
What freezings have I felt, what dark days seen?
What old December's bareness every where!

William Shakespeare, Sonnet 97

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TheZookie007

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Re: Revelations of sexual harrassment
« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2017, 04:54:04 AM »

Matt Lauer? Charlie Rose? Garrison Keillor? Yeah, they deserved to be let go. Good luck with the job search!
Conyers? Repay the settlement out of your own pocket, finish your term, and don't let the door hit you on the way out.

You know what bugs me about this? The fact that there's a Congressional "slush fund" to pay the victims. That's our tax money being used to shut these women up. It's crazy!


I'm very concerned that this is going to become a witch hunt, with all accusations, no matter how spurious, being treated as the gospel truth and used to condemn people without even the most basic standards of fairness. How about we start with no anonymous accusations? I'm willing to take what you have to say seriously, so put your name on it, OK?


Have you seen what happens to whistleblowers, especially whistleblowers against public officials? It can get very nasty (to say the least), especially since more time and energy seems to be focused on trying to denigrate the whistleblower instead of trying to get to the bottom of whatever it is the whistleblower was blowing their whistle about.

 
"When your city is French in origin, and your Mayor and Governor are Democrats, and those most affected by this natural disaster are Black, don't expect much help from Bush." -- Left of Y'all (and the link works now too! )

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TheZookie007

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Re: Revelations of sexual harrassment
« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2017, 05:00:26 AM »
Quartz: "There’s a powerful message behind the cropped elbow in the Time cover photo"


In stark contrast with last year’s pick, a self-confessed sexual harasser, Time Magazine’s 2017 Person of the Year is the “silence breakers,” a powerful title for the women who fueled the #MeToo movement. And the cover photo makes a bold statement on behalf of those who cannot speak out.



Honoring the #MeToo movement as a global “reckoning” with sexual harassment, assault, and systemic misogyny, Time explains:

“The women and men who have broken their silence span all races, all income classes, all occupations and virtually all corners of the globe. They might labor in California fields, or behind the front desk at New York City’s regal Plaza Hotel, or in the European Parliament. They’re part of a movement that has no formal name. But now they have a voice.”...

Why the unseen woman means so much

As the #MeToo movement gained velocity, critics eagerly questioned why women subjected to sexual misconduct years or decades ago did not come forward immediately. The implication has been that they should not be believed, as if the merit of their allegations had an expiration date.

This skepticism is sexist in its refusal to trust women’s ability to account for their own lived experience. It’s also profoundly ignorant, as it fundamentally overlooks the overwhelming power dynamics that enable sexual harassment to proliferate by promoting and forgiving powerful men, regardless of their missteps—while punishing anyone who tries to challenge their eminence.


The obscured woman on Time’s cover can be seen as a response to those skeptics—the people who argue sexual harassment isn’t such a big deal, and those who tout the lie that women who suffer abuse silently are weak or can be dismissed.

The magazine’s statement is direct: First, shut the hell up. Second, realize that these women, all around you, are strong, brave, and deserving of every ounce of your honor and respect.


"When your city is French in origin, and your Mayor and Governor are Democrats, and those most affected by this natural disaster are Black, don't expect much help from Bush." -- Left of Y'all (and the link works now too! )

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gonZo

  • pain in the ass, moderator
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Re: Revelations of sexual harrassment
« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2017, 08:00:49 PM »
I'm beginning to think it would be better to just leave the thread as it is. Most people who seriously want to discuss the effects of harassment and accusations-of-harassment on gender and society seem to have ignored the politically-motivated posts, so there are clearly enough grown-ups here that I shouldn't need to do anything heavy-handed to the thread.

Also, Poe and Zookie make valid dovetailing points: harassment often occurs in power-imbalance scenarios, and politics is just an overheated form of power-imbalance scenario.

So: please pardon my interruption and carry on.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 10:48:50 PM by gonZo »

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TheZookie007

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Re: Revelations of sexual harrassment
« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2017, 05:58:19 AM »

Also, Poe and Zookie make valid dovetailing points: harassment often occurs in power-imbalance scenarios, and politics is just an overheated form of power-imbalance scenario.


Indeed. It makes the infamous quote from Henry Kissinger even more...appropriate?

"Power is the ultimate aphrodisiac."

Certain men (and they are usually men) get off on this crap, and feel they have the right to do it, and feel they will never be held accountable because after all (as one of the candidates in the Alabama Senate race told one of his victims):

"You're just a chi!d...I am the district attorney of Etowah County, and if you tell anyone about this, no one will ever believe you.'".

It's a mess all around.
"When your city is French in origin, and your Mayor and Governor are Democrats, and those most affected by this natural disaster are Black, don't expect much help from Bush." -- Left of Y'all (and the link works now too! )

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3deroticer

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Re: Revelations of sexual harrassment
« Reply #24 on: December 09, 2017, 09:47:28 PM »
I think what Gonzo said is spot on about the political aspect of our MeToo campaign! I have to say that I am proud of this group willing to have a civil discussion of this and not ban it like in the other bigboob group.

I am not sure where we are as a nation with the goal post keep shifting constantly on the sexual harassment of all groups. First off as a man I have been sexually harass at work by both male and female bosses, and fired and rehired by a new female manager and work for her for great 12 years. So I understand that it isn't always about gender but a power disadvantage for the victim to fight back. In 2005 of January, I was accuse of lifting a women in the air shortly after my double kidney surgery and I still had the 10 inch stitches across my back in place from my surgery. I had doctor order to not lift anything over 5 pound for a month. I had a doctor affidavit that It was impossible for me to lift a women of any weight at that time, and I showed up in court to dispute the allegation, end up fired because their lawyers said they could not afford to represent me against a women that statistically would win the case. So I represented myself at the last minute and won on the mere technically that the accuse didn't show up to testify in court with no notice. It was the roughest time of my life, and did seek therapy afterward and delt with deeper issue of me being **14** when I was a paperboy in my hometown as a 11 year old boy. This MeToo campaign has been resurfacing much of my pain with this issue, and it sadden me to be the one included in the group that question the women's accusation. I should not be hesitant to listen to a women cry of harassment, and acknowledge that I am damage in that respect. I won the court case but I lost my reputation from my peers who last saw me being fired before due process was done, and the company folded before I could find a lawyer for damages. Took many years to regain my reputation, and feel like I am back to the person I want to be except the apprehension that I feel about these MeToo Campaigning.

I look at why I was target for sexual abuse, and realize that being deaf had a higher rate of sexual abuse over the norm for the people feel they could take advantage of the deaf as seen weaker and different from others. I just started to learn how to talk when I got my hearing aid at age 7. I think today paperboy have to be older, and society will listen to the kids better than they did for me back then. My point isn't about me on this issue but the struggle of our people dealing with this issues openly and honestly and not getting shut down as ban subject dealing with any group of being sexually abuse. This nation just went thru an overhaul of being inclusive to the LGBT and back to women's rights, and again back to the first open Transgender being elected.

Hillary didn't win the election but at least she push these topic forward. Major stride for the rights of LGBT and minors in the last 10 years.
Remember, life is too short to actually get annoyed about what someone you don’t know, don’t care about, and don’t like thinks about you and what you enjoy doing.

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gonZo

  • pain in the ass, moderator
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Re: Revelations of sexual harrassment
« Reply #25 on: December 11, 2017, 05:17:36 PM »
Moderation note:

I've removed one user's posts from this thread at his request. He felt singled out and criticized by one of my comments. I've assured him that that wasn't my intention, but he nevertheless asked that his posts be removed.
_
gonZo

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3deroticer

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Re: Revelations of sexual harrassment
« Reply #26 on: December 11, 2017, 10:32:34 PM »
https://www.npr.org/2017/12/11/569668106/the-crazy-unbelievable-alabama-senate-race-careens-to-an-end?utm_source=**24**.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_content=2040

They all think the women are lying and that it was acceptable for a 30 year old to marry a 14 year old 40 years ago. They also think George Soros paid the women to lie. I keep thinking back to "whatever they accuse you of, the chances are pretty high that the accuser are doing it" motto. But it does bother me that I am hesitant to call it either way. But more so that they are calling for him to back out of the election because there have not been a investigation while Franken said he will be out in 2 weeks before there has been a ethic committee investigations.
Remember, life is too short to actually get annoyed about what someone you don’t know, don’t care about, and don’t like thinks about you and what you enjoy doing.

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rtpoe

  • Old Fart
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Re: Revelations of sexual harrassment
« Reply #27 on: December 12, 2017, 01:57:47 AM »
Excerpts from "The Warlock Hunt" by  Claire Berlinski, where she argues for rationality about all of this.

http://www.the-american-interest.com/2017/12/06/the-warlock-hunt/

We now have, in effect, a crime that comes with a swift and draconian penalty, but no proper definition. It seems to be “sexual behavior” or “behavior that might be sexual,” committed through word, deed, or even facial expression; followed by a negative description of the woman’s emotions. Obviously this is inadequate. Human beings, male and female, are subject to human failings, including the tendency to lie, to be vengeful, to abuse power, or simply to misunderstand one another. It is hard to define sexual harassment precisely, because all of these human frailties are often involved. But we must nonetheless reason out together a definition that makes sense. Mass hysteria and making demons of men will get us nowhere we should want to go.

We should certainly realize by now that a moral panic mixed with an internet mob is a menace. When the mob descends on a target of prominence, it’s as good as a death sentence, socially and professionally. None of us lead lives so faultless that we cannot be targeted this way. “Show me the man, and I’ll show you the crime.”[see note]

Do you want to live in the kind of paranoid society where everyone wonders—Who’s next? To whom is it safe to speak freely? What would this joke sound like in a deposition? Do you think only the men who have done something truly foul are at risk? Don’t kid yourself. Once this starts, it doesn’t stop. The Perp Walk awaits us all.

Given the events of recent weeks, we can be certain of this: From now on, men with any instinct for self-preservation will cease to speak of anything personal, anything sexual, in our presence. They will make no bawdy jokes when we are listening. They will adopt in our presence great deference to our exquisite sensitivity and frailty. Many women seem positively joyful at this prospect. The Revolution has at last been achieved! But how could this be the world we want? Isn’t this the world we escaped?

Like so many revolutions, the sexual revolution risks coming full circle, returning us right where we started—fainting at bawdy jokes, demanding the return of ancient standards of chivalry, so delicate and virginal that a man’s hand on our knee causes us trauma. Women have long been victims, but now we are in so many respects victims no longer. We have more status, prestige, power, and personal freedom than ever before. Why would we want to speak and act as though we were overwhelmingly victims, as we actually used to be?

Note:  “Show me the man, and I’ll show you the crime.” - Attributed to Lavrentiy Beria, head of the NKVD, bragging how he could find any person to be guilty of some crime
rtpoe

How like a winter hath my absence been
From thee, the pleasure of the fleeting year!
What freezings have I felt, what dark days seen?
What old December's bareness every where!

William Shakespeare, Sonnet 97

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3deroticer

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Re: Revelations of sexual harrassment
« Reply #28 on: December 12, 2017, 02:22:20 AM »
This morning I had a female co-worker greeted me by rubbing her hand across my back ask me "How I was doing?" Now I just finish one of my training for Fitness certification for ways to be better fitness instructor and they emphasis to never touch your client. Instead devise ways for them to touch you. So my immediate thought was that my co-worker is a female trainer asking me how I am doing and violated her code of ethic for the position that she was in, but Of course I let her get away with it. Socially speaking it is acceptable for a ladies to be more hands on with others. If I had done that same move to her, I would be at higher risk of being reported for my behavior.

Nike company tried to pass a company rule that employee are not allow to gather together outside of work, and the state court struck it down, then they try to get a bill in the house to allow them to prevent employee to be able to gather outside of work. It was a unpopular bill and again struck down from even letting go on the floor for a vote. However, it boggles my mind at how far they went to prevent fraternization of employees of any type. I do suspect their intent was to prevent union to be form. But these guys work mostly overtime and all they do is work, eat, **82** Nike for the rest of their lives. Not leaving much time outside for anybody else. Most of these company lost their 9-5 jobs, and at worse are on stand by and work only when needed but be made available at anytime. Retail and service industry are going to that model of work scheduling. So they end up working less and the inability to get a side job to make up the differences. My point is that most likely the only social outlet they have, is with co-worker in the same boat, and yet its becoming major taboo to do so.
Remember, life is too short to actually get annoyed about what someone you don’t know, don’t care about, and don’t like thinks about you and what you enjoy doing.

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rtpoe

  • Old Fart
  • 10075
Re: Revelations of sexual harrassment
« Reply #29 on: December 14, 2017, 03:04:28 AM »
I'm seeing what I hope are good signs that the movement is slowing down for a dose of rationality.

When even feminist writers are worried about people going too far (they look back at what happened on college campuses and don't like how that turned out), denying the accused even the simplest items of fairness. For example, NY Public Radio's Leonard Lopate was suspended from his radio show and escorted off the premises last week - without even being told what the accusations against him were.

http://money.cnn.com/2017/12/06/media/leonard-lopate-jonathan-schwartz-wnyc/index.html

Why the #MeToo Movement Should Be Ready for a Backlash
As a much-needed reckoning happens in the workplace, look to college campuses for a note of caution.
By EMILY YOFFE, Politico, December 10, 2017

In August, four feminist Harvard Law professors—Gersen, Elizabeth Bartholet, Nancy Gertner and Janet Halley—released a paper, titled “Fairness for All,” writing that the procedures on campus today “are frequently so unfair as to be truly shocking.” For example, “some colleges and universities fail even to give students the complaint against them, or notice of the factual basis of the charges, the evidence gathered, or the identities of witnesses.”

For years now, Democrats have described our nation’s campuses as places of overwhelming danger, where female students are at the mercy of predatory male classmates and callous administrators....

There is no good evidence that sociopathic predators beset campuses (a single study that made this assertion has been thoroughly debunked) or that callous administrators routinely abet such offenders. Nearly all of the many dozens of people I’ve interviewed—campus administrators, higher education experts, Department of Education civil rights investigators, professors, attorneys—describe the vast majority of cases as involving two students, usually in their first or second year, who are inexperienced at sex, and who frequently have been **94**, beginning an encounter that both parties often agree began consensually, and about which recollections later diverge.

The movement to stop sexual harassment in the workplace will eventually move past this moment of shocking allegations against famous men, and should soon focus on the many nonfamous people in quotidian circumstances. But top news organizations are not likely to provide as much due diligence about those cases. No doubt many disputes will more resemble those on campus, in that the charges will be about ambiguous situations for which there is little evidence. This amazing moment has a chance to be truly transformative. But it could also go off track if all accusations are taken on faith, if due process is seen as an impediment rather than a requirement and an underpinning of justice, and if men and women grow wary of each other in the workplace. As Laura Kipnis, a feminist professor at Northwestern, writes in her book, Unwanted Advances, “I can think of no better way to subjugate women than to convince us that assault is around every corner.”




rtpoe

How like a winter hath my absence been
From thee, the pleasure of the fleeting year!
What freezings have I felt, what dark days seen?
What old December's bareness every where!

William Shakespeare, Sonnet 97