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DruulEmpire

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Re: Next Stop Dow 11111
« Reply #570 on: October 16, 2012, 03:33:46 PM »
Aaand ... we're back up to 13551.  As I noted a month ago, a closing like this sets us above the critical level 13522, the lowest closing in that record month, October 2007, exactly five years ago.  (Although, for how many days, or hours ... or minutes?)

I would so love to see 13667 or higher by Halloween ... but experience has taught me to just appreciate that right now we're 420 points ahead of my prediction.

In other news, I caught video of my sweetheart Tamron Hall talking to famous Obama critic Velma Hart, and she's not changing any horses in the middle of any stream.  (Finding work may have helped.)

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DruulEmpire

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Re: Next Stop Dow 11111
« Reply #571 on: October 23, 2012, 11:08:47 AM »
Well, this is a revolting development just one week later. :(  It's the middle of the day and the Dow has already seen a low of 13083.  Do I make these predictions ridiculously tight or what? :P

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DruulEmpire

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Re: Next Stop Dow 11111
« Reply #572 on: October 29, 2012, 04:08:47 PM »
Well, isn't this just sweet.  When last we left the Dow, it closed Friday at 13107, just 23 points shy of what I need for my October 31 deadline.  So I figure, hey, three trading days, that's doable.  But now, thanks to Hurricane Sandy, the Dow will only resume on that very day of October 31.

Did I screw up?  We shall see -- but one thought strikes me.  I thought "13130, let's give this a scary day -- how about Halloween all over again?"  Today, with 20/20 hindsight, you know what would have made a good scary day and saved my bacon by now?  August 9, anniversary of the Nagasaki bombing, which this year saw the Dow close at 13165.  Live and try to learn.

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DruulEmpire

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Re: Next Stop Dow 11111
« Reply #573 on: October 31, 2012, 09:28:54 AM »
Let's see, so far today we've seen a high of 13189 ... fingers crossed ... :P

Aaand ... we closed at 13096.  You know, when I started this, I didn't know about CNN's accurate accounts of the high of the day, that's why I settled on closings.  Anyhow, playing by the book, I came 34 short.  I could make excuses like "What depressing weather!" or "A trading week opening on Wednesday, really?" but when you opt for this game you opt to get hit.

That said, you step back and I still see something to an attitude of guarded optimism.  Just four Fridays ago the close was 13610.

Plus, I'll make another confession.  I chose 13130 as a slight padding of a double of the "O-low," the lowest the Dow has been on Obama's watch.  That was 6547.  13096 is almost EXACTLY a double of that, so my original intent came through.  I just didn't get to keep my cute padding, is all.  Still, let the record show: in a Halloween season slammed by Hurricane Sandy and its subsequent superstorm, the Dow still doubled (again -- a few times, in fact, if you look over recent months) in Obama's first term.

And with that, I'm done trying to predict.  I'll be back on this thread in about a week, and that will be the end of my running it.  This thread has seen the Dow sink through the titular 11111 all the way down to 6547, and since then it has as of this writing risen nearly 2000 above 11111.  I have some thoughts about the journey, and some of the behavior witnessed here, and the future -- but later, later.

PS: today Jim Cramer writes that all kinds of news over in Europe might have triggered a huge rally had this been an ordinary trading week.  It is my belief that weather in general is going to become crazier in coming decades.  I've never really factored that into my speculation before.  From now on, I will.   
« Last Edit: October 31, 2012, 04:59:56 PM by DruulEmpire »

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DruulEmpire

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Re: Next Stop Dow 11111
« Reply #574 on: November 01, 2012, 10:26:40 AM »
Oh sure, TODAY the Dow hits a high of 13273 ... ::)

All right, I'm not even going to wait for the close.  My track record is as follows:

Four proposed "floors" for the Dow.  The first three -- 11111 (hence this thread's name), 10570, 7227 -- crashed miserably.  Only my 5678 held, with a wide margin.  Ever since then, all of my projections have been targets to meet or exceed by a certain date, and those have been:

8500: exceeded
8900: exceeded
9400: exceeded
9630: exceeded
10101: exceeded
10509: exceeded
10667: exceeded
10872: FAIL
11111: exceeded
11550: FAIL
11667: FAIL
11776: exceeded
12345: exceeded
12555: exceeded
12960: FAIL
13130: FAIL

The final two failures to make an exact prediction point up how nowheresville the Dow has been over the past twelve months.  I would note, though, that depending on how you measure it, my final failure missed by several hours (an early high that very day of 13189) or one day (today).  I also like to keep in mind that we cracked the 13600 level just a few weeks ago.  My record shows a fair amount of trial and error, slightly emboldened optimism occasionally getting whacked down to become ever more cautious.  Since 2009 the controversy for me has been, not whether the Dow could continue to succeed, but at what speed.

I am not at all the person I was when I began this.  This has been an education -- and I far better appreciate today the total history of the Dow, from its very beginning.  Too many people today seem to think the Dow was created in the Nineties, during the Clinton years, and is always and only supposed to keep rising meteorically.  For the most part it has been a very conservative and humbling index, and we do well to always remember that.

Oh, today's close?  13232.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2012, 03:15:16 PM by DruulEmpire »

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DruulEmpire

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Re: mastert's Dow 9999?
« Reply #575 on: November 01, 2012, 12:39:27 PM »
</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
<b><i>DruulEmpire said:</i></b>
So ... Bush was a liberal.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">
Bush was not a liberal, no, but his failed policies (such as I see them from a conservative perspective) were in fact liberalized policies, either supported by Democrats, or compromised by Republicans-in-name-only (aka RINOs).

George W. Bush is NOT an ideological conservative. He may have some conservative principles, but he certainly was no champion of the social or economic conservative movement. The only thing I have to say about which he was a true success was his tax policies and his national security policies.

I don't say that he had any spending policies because the President doesn't control spending--Congress does, specifically the House of Representatives. The past eight years of rampant spending, including these billions and trillions of dollars being doled out in bailouts currently are coming at the hands of a primarily Democratic Congress, soon to be supported by even more Democratic members AND a Democratic president.

It's not often that I say this, but America gets what it deserves when it puts liberalism in power as it has done increasingly over the last 8 years, and as the Bush administration itself has trended leftward. Look to see the Obama administration lurch even further in that direction.

When things blow up, don't blame conservatives. I wash my hands of the next four years, or at least the next two.

Q-"<i>I'm going to run for Congress</i>"-BE

Couldn't resist.  This was back at a time when the Dow was somewhere around 7500.  So I'm guessing that Q, wherever he's gotten to, washes his hands of the past 5700 or so points gained.  Meanwhile, I propose a hobby: which Congressional candidate might Q be?

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solvegas

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Re: Next Stop Dow 11111
« Reply #576 on: November 01, 2012, 10:31:12 PM »
Well Druul, I'm sure you will flame me but the Dow has been propped up by the easy money of the Federal Reserve. The value of stocks depends, in the long run, on the true profits of the publicly traded companies. Right now my savings accounts and bonds yield shit. My IRA was yielding 6.25 % until it rolled over and now the best I can get is 2.75 %. So money is going to the stock exchange looking for higher yield. I don't have the resources or the balls to shift my money massively into a speculative stock bubble. And the stock exchange is frothy. The P/E ratio is too high and I don't trust it. I feel sorry for whoever is president for he will have to confront a stock exchange crash caused by too easy money and / or massive inflation requiring a tightening of the money supply like we had in the late 70's and early 80's. The printing presses have been running hog wild on both sides of the Atlantic and debasing the currency always leads to tears. In the long run I'm optimistic but in the short run we could be living in interesting times. 

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DruulEmpire

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Re: Next Stop Dow 11111
« Reply #577 on: November 05, 2012, 02:02:52 PM »
You're in luck, sol, because even if I were so inclined, I tend not to "flame" what I don't quite follow.  (Anyone out there want to lend me a hand?  Bio, perhaps?)  All I know is that the Fed's been around since 1913.  (It also seems like only a few decades ago that bonds continued to make sense, but you're right, they do seem a joke these days.)  So, has the Dow been propped up by easy money for a century?  Or are we talking about policies specific to a Volcker or a Greenspan or a Bernanke?  How bad was the Fed during the Clinton Nineties, or do you chalk the entirety of that up to a dot-com bubble?

We keep hearing about a "debt bomb" and I agree it's a problem, but for the life of me the best time we confronted it in recent history was the Clinton era.  Certainly I have no love for the "let's slash a few cheap but symbolic things while claiming that wars magically pay for themselves" approach.  So far as I can see, nothing gets done on the cheap -- least of all wrapping up two wars and getting out of what I call a Quiet Depression in just its first five years.  So, yes, we'll need some Clintonian revival of surplus generation as soon as possible.  Till then, what I rather hate about relentless "debt bomb" talk is that it never adheres to a persuasive timetable.  It oh so mysteriously vanished during eight years of Bush and only now that we need to lick this Depression do people suddenly claim to care so very intensely about it.  Until I hear a truly persuasive "debt bomb" timetable, from a tough non-partisan budget hawk the likes of David Walker or Pete Peterson, I have to take such talk with a tablespoon of salt as code for "But at least Republicans run up patriotic giant deficits."

This is a prognostication thread.  Anything that reliably aids prognostication, I'm for.  What I find fascinating is that people gather here during the collapse but, during the long upward struggle, half of them keep saying "This is it, this particular downturn is the onset of doomsday" and it never bloody happens.  I see zero point to flaming anyone.  Anyone is free -- in fact, encouraged -- to talk about debt or bonds or money supply.  The only difference is, for good or ill, I make a prediction, and by God I stick with it.  In a thread like this, nouns come cheap.  Who will start assigning some calendar dates?  
« Last Edit: November 05, 2012, 02:06:47 PM by DruulEmpire »

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DruulEmpire

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Re: Next Stop Dow 11111
« Reply #578 on: November 06, 2012, 03:17:17 PM »
Close today was 13245 -- interesting because I don't usually expect Election Day to do very well, what with all the uncertainty.

ADDENDUM:

All right, now that we have seen the re-election of President Barack Hussein Obama, I'm letting go of this thread -- but not out of anticipation of watching it plummet, as anyone can read the first pages and follow how the Dow fell on Bush's watch and continued seven weeks into Obama's first term.  Nothing has substantively changed in what has been my basic strategy ever since March 2009: to anticipate a slow, halting, yet distinctly consistent rise in the Dow.  Of course, I can afford to say this because the only target date I care about anymore is THURSDAY, OCTOBER 27, 2016.  That's right, I'm looking four whole years into the future.  But first, a few words.

First, I can wholly understand how anyone can find this one thread alone to be grossly inadequate to assessing our economy.  We have an unemployment thread lying around here somewhere and we can always bump that up.  Heck, anyone is always free to start their own threads.  You can talk about bonds, or money supply, or how awful it is that we don't have the gold standard anymore -- honestly, whatever floats your boat, just go for it, post away.  In fact, I would greatly prefer such outright threads to the occasional one-shot grumble-mumble passive-aggressive sideswipes that sometimes pop up: "Oh dear oh my, such a shame that DruulEmpire has **92** that Jonestown Flavor-Aid and his brain is just too soft and insensitive to this one dazzling economic indicator which I'm only going to blurt out just this once before of necessity squirreling myself away from the vast omnipotent monolithic liberal conspiracy, oh dear oh my" or some such suggestion.  The economy's important, and it can always use more threads.  So far as this particular thread is concerned, it can basically go all to shit now that I'm opting out, but for whatever it may be worth I leave it with three wishes:

1. Put up some numbers, particularly target Dow levels, up or down, and specific dates.  There are people who for decades have predicted doomsday for the Dow every damn day, and such people were in no way "vindicated" come the Bush meltdown.  Look, you can cast yourself as Cassandra and pontificate all you please, but at the end of the proverbial day I wish you could also set a target number and a date for that target.  You think there's a "debt bomb"?  Set a date.  You think Europe is about to collapse?  Set a date.  You think there's an impending fuel crisis?   Set a date.  Anyone can hypothesize, but it takes real guts to place a gentleman's (or lady's) bet, and stick it out with quiet grace.

2. Please leave your claims open to verification.  You search back on this thread far enough, you find a bizarre (even for him) Q_BE comment of truly Romney-Orwellian style rhetoric to the effect that the Dow adding just a couple of points is somehow a tribute to the vast iso-Masonic power of the Fed.  Say what!?  Look, when overseas markets are slumping, acknowledge it, and when oil prices rise, acknowledge it -- acknowledge the damn data, because the whole "My hypothesis is getting proven even though I'm the only person in America talking about it" isn't very persuasive.

3. Finally, strive to be gracious.  (This goes even for pedonbio, who I generally agree with.)  The economy is ultimately not so abstract at all, it's what we all live in.  We should all be pulling for it and trying to help, not just sitting back and going Nya-nya at each other.

I'm struck by how this thread got some attention during the meltdown, a meltdown which noone seemed to predict -- but then, as we struggled to recover, there were calls of "Aha, this particular momentary downturn is the precursor of true doomsday!" and every damn one of those calls bloody well came to nothing.  Maybe it's just plain human to do that, but it's still not very impressive.  It reminds me of Redd Foxx as Fred Sanford flailing around with one of his melodramatic fake heart attacks:  "Oh no!  This is the big one!  You hear that, Elizabeth!  I'm coming to join you, honey!"  Foxx did it first, and better than any of us.  Please try leaving it alone.

And now three targets for 10/27/2016  These are not predictions, but more speculations.

1. 14920: A Dim Hope.  In the next four years, it's not enough to meet and beat the old high of 14164.  The "1492" symbolizes hope for a New World with new infrastructure, a new grid, new energy, the works.

2. 15555: The Beginning of Promise.  With all decimal levels set at 5, the midpoint, this expresses real hope of someday hitting 20000.

3. 16384: A Time For Caution.  I think this is an appropriate level to start worrying about our having settled into some new soon-to-burst bubble -- and I leave it to you to figure out how I chose that.

That's it.  It's been fun.  May we ascend far beyond 16000, and on solid ground, with our rights intact.       
« Last Edit: November 07, 2012, 06:59:13 AM by DruulEmpire »

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DruulEmpire

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Re: Next Stop Dow 11111
« Reply #579 on: December 31, 2012, 03:33:03 PM »
So anyway, I find myself hanging out around here a couple weeks longer than originally planned, and in keeping with my spirit of guarded optimism I'm going to offer these targets for the years ahead of us, chosen mainly (but not exclusively) on an aesthetic basis:

1. In 2013, 13667 or higher.  It would certainly be nice to beat the high reached in October of this year.

2. In 2014, 14000 or higher.  I'm personally tired of the 13000s.  At the same time, I'm taking my time daring to leap over the all-time high of 14164 from 2007.

3. In 2015, 14441 or higher.  A palindrome.  Why?  Because in binary 2,015 = 11111011111.

4. As noted above, by October 27, 2016, 14920 or higher.

I'd rather have it slow and solid than fast and worthless.  ("That's what SHE said!")  We shall see.

Happy 2013.

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bignatslover

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Re: Next Stop Dow 11111
« Reply #580 on: January 01, 2013, 09:06:45 AM »
DruulEmpire your posts are great and often on the money too.

If we have runaway inflation in 2014-2015 as some predict, it might push those numbers higher.  But it would totally suck because while we have higher 401K values, gasoline becomes consistently $5/gallon or more.  :(

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solvegas

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Re: Next Stop Dow 11111
« Reply #581 on: January 01, 2013, 11:13:01 PM »
High inflation is never good for the stock market. I remember the 1970's very well and the Dow Jones sucked big time. Gold and silver did great though.

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gOOber

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Re: Next Stop Dow 11111
« Reply #582 on: January 02, 2013, 05:43:03 PM »
So anyway, I find myself hanging out around here a couple weeks longer than originally planned, and in keeping with my spirit of guarded optimism I'm going to offer these targets for the years ahead of us, chosen mainly (but not exclusively) on an aesthetic basis:

1. In 2013, 13667 or higher.  It would certainly be nice to beat the high reached in October of this year.

2. In 2014, 14000 or higher.  I'm personally tired of the 13000s.  At the same time, I'm taking my time daring to leap over the all-time high of 14164 from 2007.

3. In 2015, 14441 or higher.  A palindrome.  Why?  Because in binary 2,015 = 11111011111.

4. As noted above, by October 27, 2016, 14920 or higher.

I'd rather have it slow and solid than fast and worthless.  ("That's what SHE said!")  We shall see.

Happy 2013.
If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards. ;) ;)
....rejoicing in the fullness thereof....

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DruulEmpire

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Re: Next Stop Dow 11111
« Reply #583 on: January 02, 2013, 06:14:18 PM »
 8) Depends which "bullseye" we're talking about, gOOb.  The Dow has seen slow and solid growth before, it hasn't been all bubbles all the time.  I do hope we can climb our way to 14920 and hold that.  At the same time, though, back in November I said to beware of 16384 -- nice and high, but perhaps too much and too far not to expect another bubble somewhere inside it.  I think we're agreed that someday there will be another crisis; the trick is figuring out how quickly or slowly it's en route.

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gOOber

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Re: Next Stop Dow 11111
« Reply #584 on: January 02, 2013, 06:24:54 PM »
8) Depends which "bullseye" we're talking about, gOOb.  The Dow has seen slow and solid growth before, it hasn't been all bubbles all the time.  I do hope we can climb our way to 14920 and hold that.  At the same time, though, back in November I said to beware of 16384 -- nice and high, but perhaps too much and too far not to expect another bubble somewhere inside it.  I think we're agreed that someday there will be another crisis; the trick is figuring out how quickly or slowly it's en route.
I was being a bit flippant so I threw in a mixed metaphor. ;) I do enjoy following your fearless fiscal forecasts.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2013, 06:53:07 PM by gOOber »
....rejoicing in the fullness thereof....