[CarlTL]

But these are the people you NEED to have on your side if you want to get the general public

Trump doesn't need them.  He tweets directly or puts videos on youtube and tells the public directly.

A lot of people are calling for the end of the presidential press corp.  The press is desperate to have the public keep believing that they're needed.

- who at last count gave Clinton TWO MILLION MORE VOTES than you (and possibly more Electoral Votes, too, if it turns out that things were tampered with in Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin, as some are strongly suggesting) - behind you.

There's 538 electoral voters.  Simply have an FBI agent go to each one, show them who they officially voted for, and then ask if that's right.  It can be done in an afternoon if they wanted to.

Hillary lost.  That's not going to change.

One issue here. The Electoral college hasn't voted yet. The 538 electors vote on the 19th of December.

[StrikezOne]

Dont like Trump? Fine. But at least Trump actually wants to do something about our borders. You know... the little thing that actually makes us a country in the first place?

You see how these arguments can easily be changed? Its just a matter of preference or perception at this point.

What makes America America is our inclusion, not our borders.

Not shocked at all.

You changed the argument to make your own point stronger. You first spoke about the country and then I said what even makes this a country a country... having borders.

Then you flipped it to what makes America America. You can say its hard work, the diversity, "freedom," and all those things. And I get it, America is a country, duh we a know this... but dont go that route because I have a feeling you will.

You flipped the subject/argument. Nice try, but try again.

__________

Anyway, in other news....

Reddit has banned the sub-reddit of "PizzaGate"
(liberals love that source, Washington Post. I just used it to show that Reddit did really ban it, not supporting Washington Post's reason as to why it was banned.)

What is PizzaGate you ask? Well, youre going to have to find out for yourself.

BUT WHAT MAKES THIS ACTUALLY INTERESTING is that Reddit CEO keeps a sub-reddit open called; "Ped0s and friends of ped0s."

[rtpoe]

StrikezOne and Moobs - Where do you get your news from, then? And not from random conspiracy sites publishing bogus videos that claim to show how Real News is all faked. And not the garbage clickbait sites that bubble up to the top of your **24** feed. I mean real, verifiable, actual, factual INFORMATION.

How do you keep up with what is going on in the world?

If you don't give a rat's ass about anything - or FOR anything, and wish to drown in cynicism, then there's no hope for you. Just don't take the rest of us down with you, OK?

[Prinzeugen]

I believe that in about six months or less a whole bunch of Trump supporters are going to have some serious buyers remorse.. I hope I am wrong..  He will be steering the ship and we are all in it !

[Ninjaturtle]

Dont like Trump? Fine. But at least Trump actually wants to do something about our borders. You know... the little thing that actually makes us a country in the first place?

You see how these arguments can easily be changed? Its just a matter of preference or perception at this point.

What makes America America is our inclusion, not our borders.

Not shocked at all.

You changed the argument to make your own point stronger. You first spoke about the country and then I said what even makes this a country a country... having borders.

Then you flipped it to what makes America America. You can say its hard work, the diversity, "freedom," and all those things. And I get it, America is a country, duh we a know this... but dont go that route because I have a feeling you will.

You flipped the subject/argument. Nice try, but try again.

__________

Anyway, in other news....

Reddit has banned the sub-reddit of "PizzaGate"
(liberals love that source, Washington Post. I just used it to show that Reddit did really ban it, not supporting Washington Post's reason as to why it was banned.)

What is PizzaGate you ask? Well, youre going to have to find out for yourself.

BUT WHAT MAKES THIS ACTUALLY INTERESTING is that Reddit CEO keeps a sub-reddit open called; "Ped0s and friends of ped0s."

Having borders does indeed make a country a country but why can't we continue to let some who slip in stay. What harm does it cause?

[SwitcherX]

But these are the people you NEED to have on your side if you want to get the general public

Trump doesn't need them.  He tweets directly or puts videos on youtube and tells the public directly.

A lot of people are calling for the end of the presidential press corp.  The press is desperate to have the public keep believing that they're needed.

- who at last count gave Clinton TWO MILLION MORE VOTES than you (and possibly more Electoral Votes, too, if it turns out that things were tampered with in Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin, as some are strongly suggesting) - behind you.

There's 538 electoral voters.  Simply have an FBI agent go to each one, show them who they officially voted for, and then ask if that's right.  It can be done in an afternoon if they wanted to.

Hillary lost.  That's not going to change.

One issue here. The Electoral college hasn't voted yet. The 538 electors vote on the 19th of December.

that's a really good point.  XD

What I mean is electoral voter fraud would be extremely hard to do and easily caught.

[andrat2000]

From a abroad point of view (german media):

Enlight me, you fellow americans on this forum!

Quick question, how is that refugee program working out for you guys in Germany?

If you look at it on overall and don't listen to the propagandist extremistic right wing news blogs like pi-news, etc. and their lies in very one sided articles, it is working much more fine, than it does works bad. Most emmergency accomodations are empty - though one exception is the federal state of Berlin - they have some free space issues. The official decissions are if a refugee can stay and how long are pretty well in progress as well as sending them back into the safe countries they stayed earlier in if they are not acknowledged as refuggee.
Don't forget we would have civil wars (between Nazi/extremist right people and liberals, though liberals in Germany are not only like your democrats, they are your GOP 20 years ago and democrats together including green party) in Hungary by now and in other eastern European countries if Germany wouldn't have taken the presssure from them by opening the boarders. And these refugees were already in Europe when Germany opened the boarders and said they would guarantee protection for Syrian people. The propagandist screwed up right wing Nazi extremists tell the story the other way around.

Anyway, I don't like Merkel either. I don't like her because she didn't take neccessary consequences to avoid the US (especially the NSA) to spy on us Germans. I will never forget, that the bigger German parties didn't draw a line here and said, so far and no step further. Instead they betrayed the German people to undemocratic US organizations like the NSA and other intelligence services (eg. British ones).

A question back to you:
How does the recounts in the swing states working out?
I know these statistical methods were the experts found these eye-catching differences are always used to examine and monitor elections in 3rd world countries that are a bit democracy underdeveloped or dictatorships that say they are democratic because they allow elections. It is very interesting how this works ...

[gonZo]

Jill Stein's recount request in Wisconsin was accepted by the board of elections on Friday and the recount will begin soon, but it doesn't have to be finished until December 13th. That's the federal deadline for recount filings. The Electoral College casts its final votes on December 19th, and the votes are counted by Congress on January 6th.

The requests for recounts in Pennsylvania and Michigan haven't been filed yet, but their deadlines are this coming week (Monday and Wednesday respectively). Stein filed in Wisconsin just hours before the deadline, so that may be what she intends to do in the other states.

Meanwhile, some press outlets have accused Stein of inflating the crowdfunding goals needed to file and litigate the recounts. That's the state of things in this American election: there are no "clean candidates", and the press and public don't trust any of them. Every candidate has been accused of having ulterior motives.

(Added later: It would really surprise me if the recounts change anything. There's a lot of talk about hacking of voting machines, the influence of fake news posted on Facebøøk before the election, and the possibility of Russian interference at several levels, but rumors of that stuff have been flying in all directions, and it's hard to nail any of it down factually.)

[Ninjaturtle]

Absolutely nothing will change with recounts. That's just a giant waste of time and money.

[gonZo]

(I agree with Ninjaturtle's first statement, but regarding the second statement, I refer you to the following...)

Context: cybertattacks in the 2016 presidential election

6. The 2016 presidential election was subject to unprecedented cyber attacks apparently intended to interfere with the election. This summer, attackers broke into the email system of the Democratic National Committee, and, separately, into the email account of John Podesta, the chairman of Secretary Clinton’s campaign. The attackers leaked private messages from both hacks. Attackers also infiltrated the voter registration systems of two states, Illinois and Arizona, and stole voter data. The Department of Homeland Security has stated that senior officials in the Russian government commissioned these attacks. Attackers attempted to breach election offices in more than 20 other states.

7. Russia has sophisticated cyber offensive capabilities, and has shown a willingness to use them to hack elections elsewhere. For instance, according to published reports, during the 2014 presidential election in Ukraine, attackers linked to Russia sabotaged Ukraine’s vote-counting infrastructure, and Ukrainian officials succeeded only at the last minute in defusing vote-stealing malware that could have caused the wrong winner to be announced. [Exhibit G] Countries other than Russia also have similarly sophisticated cyber warfare capabilities.

8. If a foreign government were to attempt to hack American voting machines to influence the outcome of the presidential election, one might expect the attackers to proceed as follows. First, the attackers might probe election offices well in advance, to find ways to break into the computers. Next, closer to the election, when it was clear from polling data which states would have close electoral margins, the attackers might spread malware into voting machines into some of the states, manipulating the machines to shift a few percent of the vote to favor their desired candidate.

This malware would be likely to be designed to remain inactive during pre-election tests, perform its function during the election, and then erase itself once the polls closed. One would expect a skilled attacker’s work to leave no visible signs, other than a surprising electoral outcome in which results in several close states differed from pre-election polling.

The vulnerability of American voting machines to cyber attack.

9. As I, and other experts, have repeatedly documented in peer-reviewed and state-sponsored research, American voting machines have serious cybersecurity problems. Voting machines are computers with reprogrammable software. An attacker who can modify that software by infecting the machines with malware can cause the machines to provide any results of the attacker’s choosing. As I have demonstrated in laboratory tests, in just a few seconds, anyone can install vote stealing malware on a voting machine that slightly alters the electronic records of every vote.

10. Whether voting machines are connected to the Internet is irrelevant. Shortly before each election, poll workers copy the ballot design from a regular desktop computer in a government office and use removable media (akin to the memory card in digital camera) to load the ballot design onto each machine. That initial computer is almost certainly not one secure enough to guard against attacks by foreign governments. If technically sophisticated attackers infect that computer, they can spread vote-stealing malware to every voting machine in the area. Technically sophisticated attackers can accomplish this with ease.

11. While the vulnerabilities of American voting machines have been known for some time, states’ responses to these vulnerabilities have been patchy and inconsistent at best. Many states, including Wisconsin, continue to use out of date machines that are known to be insecure.

Examining the paper record is the only way to ensure the integrity of the results.

12. Paper ballots are the best and most secure technology available for counting votes. Optical scan voting allows the voter to fill out a paper ballot that is scanned and counted by a computer. Electronic voting machines with voter-verified paper audit trails allow the voter to review a printed record of the vote he has just cast on the computer. Only a paper record documents the vote in a manner that cannot be later modified by malware or other forms of cyber attacks.

13. One explanation for the results of the 2016 presidential election is that cyber-attacks influenced the results. This explanation is plausible, in light of other known cyber attacks intended to affect the outcome of the election; because of the profound vulnerability of American voting machines to cyber attacks; and the fact that the skilled attacker would leave no outward or visible evidence of an attack other than an unexpected result.

14. The only way to determine whether a cyber-attack affected the outcome of the 2016 presidential election is to examine the available physical evidence – that is, to count the paper ballots and paper audit trail records, and review the voting equipment, to ensure that the votes cast by actual voters match the results determined by the computers.

For ballots cast through optical scanners, a manual recount of the paper ballots, without relying on the electronic equipment, must occur. Using electronic equipment to conduct the recount, even after first evaluating the machine to a test deck, is insufficient. Attackers intending to commit a successful cyber-attack could, and likely would, create a method to undermine any pre-tests. For votes cast on electronic voting machines, the paper audit trail records must be counted, since the electronic records stored in the machines could have been manipulated in an attack. Voting equipment that might yield forensic evidence of an attack includes the voting machines, removable media, and election management system computers. Paper ballots, paperboard trails, and voting equipment will only be examined in this manner if there is a recount.

15. A recount is the best way, and indeed the only way, to ensure public confidence that the results are accurate, authentic, and untainted by interference. It will also set a precedent that may provide an important deterrent against cyber attacks on future elections.

[moobs]

StrikezOne and Moobs - Where do you get your news from, then?

TYT, Jimmy Dore, Humanist Report, Secular Talk, progressive blogs, etc.

Here's coverage on the DAPL protests barely covered by MSM how an unarmed protester got her arm blown off by a concussion grenade. https://youtube.com/v/jXXx4BxoNj4

Here's Jimmy Dore's take on CNN distorts the truth on DAPL protests. https://youtube.com/v/Se3863oWJGg

And not from random conspiracy sites publishing bogus videos that claim to show how Real News is all faked. And not the garbage clickbait sites that bubble up to the top of your **24** feed. I mean real, verifiable, actual, factual INFORMATION.

Considering how every major media outlet said Hillary was going to win while alternative media was correct in saying she will lose, maybe it's time for you to look at alternative choices unless you like being ignorant on what's going on in the world.

[rtpoe]

Well, I do vary my news supply. The NY Times, Washington Post, USA Today, NY Post, NY Daily News, Mother Jones (which HAS been writing about the pipeline protests), Vox, Politico....

I suppose I should at least glance over a news periodical from the conservative side if I really want to consider myself fair.....

But I'm NOT going to trust a single word from any place on this list:

http://www.fakenewswatch.com/

Meanwhile, our President-Elect gives further proof of his mental unsuitability for office. As a recount/audit begins in Wisconsin, he isn't content to have won the Presidency in full accord with the rules of the Electoral College system. No, he needs to have won the popular vote, too. So he whines about "three million illegal voters" that somehow ALL voted for Clinton - and they all voted in states where they did absolutely nothing to help her win the necessary 270 electoral votes.

Donald Trump's Pants on Fire claim that millions of illegal votes cost him popular vote victory

Now if I had any confidence in the intelligence of Trump, I could say that he sent that out in a deliberate attempt to distract everyone from a MAJOR story in the Sunday NY Times: "Potential Conflicts Around the Globe for Trump, the Businessman President" by Richard C. Paddock et al. I can't link to it, because at least one of the photos in the article features a person too young to be allowed to appear here. But I'm going to attach the graphic - each dot is the site of a Trump real estate venture. Or you could read this article at The Atlantic: Donald Trump's Conflicts of Interest: A Crib Sheet. Funny how everyone was so worried about possible problems with Clinton and the Clinton Foundation, but ignored all the serious conflict of interest issues with Trump. It's not that they weren't being reported; it's that no one was paying attention.

But I don't think it's a deliberate move on his part. We've seen time and again during the campaign that he has a colossal ego that cannot take any slight, no matter how small. He simply cannot handle any loss. Frankly, someone who's ego is so fragile that they cannot be satisfied with winning by the rules cannot be trusted to behave in the rough and tumble world of international politics where you very rarely get your way.

[andrat2000]

I suppose I should at least glance over a news periodical from the conservative side if I really want to consider myself fair.....

But I'm NOT going to trust a single word from any place on this list:

http://www.fakenewswatch.com/

Well, for Germany I regularly see one extremistic right wing website. To my knowledge the biggest on here called PI-news.net. My experience is that I've never seen before a news portal that has had more one sided articles, uncritical and quite often full of lies on than that side. Additionally they are full with complot and conspiracy theories. I can't even remotely understand the minds behind these writings

Additionally due to our WW2 Nazi history and due to the allied forces bringing back Germany to democracy we have been adding a element of law to our laws called "incitement of the people". This side is actively avoiding the daily dozens of times this element of crime (in articles and comments) by operating the servers outside of Germany. And no, this is not censorship by any means. This is part of lie checks and balances given that in the Adolf Hitler area a lot of propaganda causing the mess originated in "incitement of the leople".

Another site I watched closed in March without giving details why.

@rtpoe
I didn't know Germany is DJ Dumb-free. Cool. I knew that he tried to built a Dumb-Tower once in Stuttgart / Germany, but the people's and authorities fought him successfully off. Especially due to his financially disasters and his already back then known wicked ego. The people and authorities suspected they will get cheated. And how right they were.
Btw. the company of DJ Dumb called "Trump Deutschland GmbH" went into insolvency in 2005 pushing potential business partners into insolvency, too. Yes, yes what a successful businessmen he is ... and how caring for the people.
Oh well, forgot something. He failed with similar plans earlier in Berlin and Frankfurt.

[moobs]

Well, I do vary my news supply. The NY Times, Washington Post, USA Today, NY Post, NY Daily News, Mother Jones (which HAS been writing about the pipeline protests), Vox, Politico....

The same media that covered Trump's empty podium more than Bernie Sanders speeches with rallies bigger than Hillary or Trump during the primaries?
https://youtube.com/v//V3EBzV5SpuY

And didn't Matt Taibbi smacked down the Washington Post for their own Fake News Red Scare as journalistic malpractice?
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/features/washington-post-blacklist-story-is-shameful-disgusting-w452543

With the NY times catching the "fake news" bug by advocating internet censorship as a solution even though they peddled their own fake news by saying Iraq were building nuclear weapons in Iraq. Remember that?

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/26/world/from-the-editors-the-times-and-iraq.html?_r=0

Maybe you should add those to your fake news list?

[andrat2000]

The whole thing comes down to the escalation steps of Glasl:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Glasl's_model_of_conflict_escalation

Before the election the US was at level 5. With DJ Dumb, in some cases they went straight to level 7 after the election.
In Europe we are still at level 4/5, but it only needs one successful extremist politican and we are soon at 7, too.