[dkoster]

I'm going to have to break ranks here and question what constitutes "major income" and why would a girl have no other options?

The reason being, I'm personally close with dancers who make around $79,000/year. (Granted, that's not the figure the IRS gets...I have yet to meet a dancer who reports all their earnings) These aren't feature dancers, and they don't prostitute themselves...just hard-working house dancers.  They work 5 days/40 hrs a week.  It's a full-time job for them.  While this isn't Wall Street banker/Silicon Valley venture capital money, it certainly is more than what a vast majority of Americans make, or for that matter, anyone in the world. And they support themselves, and in 2 cases; a family, quite comfortably.  

All of the dancers I'm speaking of have had boob jobs.  They looked at it as an investment, and as it turns out, a shrewd one.  All of them paid off their surgeries in about 8 months (give or take a couple months) with the EXTRA income that their new boobs made them. I'm talking about the money above and beyond what they already made.  In every case, the girl's income rose.  

Now contrast this with some other dancers, who make considerably more than that, work less hours, and yet have no money to speak of and nothing to show for it.  It's my belief that 90% of the time this is due to the lifestyle that they choose to lead.  If you party all the time and are looking for the fun, fast-lane life, (as the dancers I know in this category are) there's a price to pay.  Hell, I've been there, and burned through more money than I care to think about sometimes. (I have nothing against this road, btw..it WAS a lot of fun.) It's also been my experience that these are the dancers it's the hardest to hear complain about money in one breath and talk about their incredible week shopping the Ceaser's store in Vegas in the next.

So, in my round about way of asking, (by way of Fargo, Tokyo, Sydney, and Albuquerque) what kind of figures are you talking about when you say "major income?" How hard/how many hours should someone expect to work in the industry for this figure?

btw, I know this may come off as combative in text form.  It's not the spirit I mean it in.  I've been reading the boards for a bunch of years now, and have come to really respect your knowledge, experience, and helpful attitude. You strike me as one of the down-to-earth people. I'd just like your perspective on this.

Koz  

[melonie_charm]

I agree with you that a 'house dancer' with a $5000 first time boob job with right out of the catalog sized breast implants can definitely pay them off within a year.  I also totally agree that, in the right city with the right clientele, it's not difficult for a 'house dancer' to gross $1500 a week working 40 hours in the same club located close to her home.  This makes perfect sense from a business standpoint - the investment was reasonable and the expenses are low.

But consider a girl who is seeking HUGE implants.  To get there, she first has to do the starter set of catalog sized implants (like 600cc) for $5000.  Then she has to do a larger set of custom made US implants (like 1200cc) for probably $10,000.  Then she is finally ready to do an even larger set of custom made european implants (like 2500cc) in the $25,000 ballpark.  To get to the really HUGE size range (like 4000cc), she'll probably have to do a second larger set of custom made european implants with another $25,000 price tag.  An alternative is to go with a set of custom made european implants which are adjustable, but these must eventually be replaced with permanent implants once the final size is achieved resulting in about the same overall cost.

As you can see, the simple $5000 one time investment for house dancers doesn't compare at all to the cost of getting to HUGE sizes, which easily runs 10+ times higher when all is said and done.  In fact, for house dancers graduating to the second step (1200cc size range), this can actually hurt her 'house dancer' earnings significantly since she's now big enough to spook many regular club customers who will think that G cups are freaky, but not big enough to receive serious attention in the big boob world.

It's also necessary to consider the travel and accomodation expenses which go along with featuring.  Even though the girl may be receiving an extra feature fee, it's not uncommon at all for that feature fee to not even cover air fare, hotel and meal costs in an expensive city.  Same goes with web servers.  It's not uncommon for one hacker attack to rack up bandwidth bills that totally consume the entire month's membership fees of a model's pay website.

This was my whole point, that with today's business conditions it's really questionable whether or not it's worth the major investment and extra risks for a house dancer to consider trying to achieve HUGE boob status.   With $50,000+ invested in the HUGE boobs, plus $1000+ per week in travel and accomodation expenses that a house dancer doesn't face, we're probably talking a $180,000 annual income for a feature to actually come out ahead vs simply staying a house dancer with catalog sized implants and avoiding the large implant investment and travel  expenses.  With the state of the big boobs business today, virtually the only way that income levels like that can be achieved involve XXX, escorting and/or 'private shows'.

I also agree with you that it's just as easy for a feature to "party away" large amounts of money the same as a house dancer, but that's not the issue here.  The issue is, as you say, a $70,000 or so annual  income potential for a house dancer working 40 hours a week after paying $5,000 for her implants and gas money to and from the club based on a $79,000 gross, versus a feature winding up with the same $70,000 or so annual income after covering $60,000+ in total implant expenses + another $50,000 in air fare, hotels, cabs etc. to travel to different club bookings every week (which actually requires 6 or 7 days a week with travel time!).

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

i have a few comments:

do clubs not pay for dancer's travel expenses, like every other business does (example: consultants)?  if not, why dont dancers start charging them?  i would assume the clubs that would pay are the only ones where it is worth a dancer's while anyways, in regards to clientele, like businessmen and the like, that have the ability to tip generously.

#2, as far as implants are concerned, i am sure they are quite expensive.  however, didnt a bunch of women (you yourself melonie, minka, maxi , kayla, chelsea, etc) receive their implants in a experimental study conducted by doc johnson free of charge?  please correct me if i am wrong, but that is my understanding of a clinical study.

and melonie, your infinite wisdom never ceases to amaze me.  thanks for all your inisght.  

[Seelie]

In reply to:

do clubs not pay for dancer's travel expenses, like every other business does (example: consultants)? if

Can't speak for the porn industry, but I know that none of the automotive magazines paid travel money for their models. Many of them lose money if they have to travel to appear in a magazine. I know for the magazines I worked on, it was a joke how little the models got paid. And that includes women like Francine Dee.

[Chili_Palmer]

I believe it was that noted pay-for-play connoisseur Charlie Sheen who said, "You're not paying them to have sex, your paying them to LEAVE after you have sex."

Since my name was brought up earlier in this thread, allow me to throw a few thoughts to you guys (and gals) about this subject.

First of all, why anybody would be shocked that a gal who films hardcore sex scenes on camera might be available to do the same thing in private is living in their own little dream world. I would estmate that probably 85-90% of the "mainstream" porno actresses have a, uh, side job, and 50-60% of the "big bust" actresses/dancers do as well. Ever since the advent of adult malls on the internet (Bodymiracle, Exotica-2000, USA-Exotics, etc.) in 1997, it's simply gotten better organized (and much, much more expensive). There are also private sites (and I am not talking about TBD or TER) where likeminded individuals can exchange contact information about the unadvertised performers available for a private get together, and _those_ names would blow your socks off.

In the "old days" (pre-internet access for everybody) to find one of these gals you had to look in your local alternative newspaper, contact the gal directly, and arrange a fee and a meeting place. Dangerous for her, risky for you. The agencies have made things more sanitary and safe for all concerned (pre-screened clients, fewer flake off opportunities) but at a steep price: whereas in, say, 1991, you get a BEA quality escort for $250-$500 for an hour session, today the fees now run from $600 to $5000 and more, with the agency taking 50% (that's right, 50%) off the top as their pimp-, er, handling fee. Most agencies are legit; they simply charge an outrageous (IMO) mark-up for little value to the experienced end user. The major benefit is to the performer: her risk of arrest or worse is lowered by a too-intrusive screening process she would otherwise be **86** or unable to do on her own, and her time is freed from having to answer the phone directly. There are methods to do an end run around the agencies, but that is a story for another time and place.

As usual, Melonie is dead on with her observations, and I salute her candid comments yet again to a group that is just not 100% ready to hear them.

The bigger (and more relevant) question is, did anybody here have the balls (and the $$$) to actually give LDM a shot while she was in NYC? Sadly, I already know the answer from the regulars here.

CP
 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

> The bigger (and more relevant) question is, did anybody
> here have the balls (and the $$$) to actually give LDM a
> shot while she was in NYC? Sadly, I already know the
> answer from the regulars here.

I called and asked about her.  I told them that I was able to see her anytime but they said she was unavailable.  Even though the webpage says she is.  And they took off the dates that were there before.

They did ask if I wanted to see anyone else.  I think the old  bait-and-switch was going to happen.  

[melonie_charm]

A - while there was a time when clubs would help offset travel and accomodation expenses for features, this is usually not the case today.  For this reason, some features wind up driving themselves from city to city on sundays and staying in Motel 6 during their week's feature booking.  Unless the feature is one of the top 3 huge busted performers, the club owners are definitely in the driver's seat when it comes to the fee they are willing to pay and the other expenses they will or will not cover.  Remember that the club owners have 100 feature entertainers to choose from (although most are XXX stars without huge bustlines - but today most clubowners  are skeptical that booking a big busted feature will draw in as much new club business as a XXX star will anyhow.)   One feature trying to 'push the envelope' in regard to feature fee levels and/or expense reimbursement today, as you suggested, would accomplish only one thing - causing the clubowner to book a different feature who has more 'reasonable' financial expectations from the club.   It's simple economics that if the guys aren't flocking to the clubs to see features like they used to (and trust me, they're not! - especially to see features other than the 'big 3'), the club owners can't afford to pay feature fees like they used to.

B - Free of charge, I wish!  Yes a few of us were lucky to get in on the experimental string implant program while it still existed, for perhaps half the price of imported custom implants.  The cost of the implants themselves was negligable, however the same surgical fee, travel and accomodation expenses had to be paid as with standard implants . Also, in order for us to get really large string implants, it was already necessary that we had large custom made implants to start with.  Other girls who went for string implants with a pair of out of the catalog standard implants to start with (i.e. 500cc) wound up restricted by the same skin stretch limitation to a 1200cc size or so, even though it was 1200cc equivalent volume of string.  At any rate, the string option is no longer available for new girls considering going for HUGE bustlines, which is the offshoot topic of this thread.

[melonie_charm]

" You want the truth ?  You want the truth ?  You can't HANDLE the truth!".

Actually, it's probably a good thing that I'm not dependent on agency bookings and feature club owners' choices, cuz my big mouth would probably cause quite a bit of professional backlash in that regard.  I guess being independent (and poor) has its own virtues.    

[Chili_Palmer]

Thanks, Pete. I'll do some checking on my own and see if she actually is escorting (I've seen her advertised on more than one site recently so I'd have to believe she is) and with whom she is using predominantly. Usually, when a stock photo is used, another name is associated with it--you are setting yourself up for a MAJOR lawsuit advertising a girl is P4P when she is not.

Based on what I've read about her elsewhere, my guess is LDM's flake factor is very high, and E-2000 didn't want to risk losing a potential high roller, so they tried to get to see another in the stable.

CP
 

[Chili_Palmer]

You know, Melonie, Jack's quote from "A Few Good Men" was actually the first one I thought of. :-)

I'd agree with you about being an indie having its advantages. In a strip club world that is has been swallowed up by the Spearmint Rhino's and Deja Vu's (home of the McDance), a free thinker like you would probably run into a multitude of problems nowadays. Good luck and continued success.

CP
 

[dkoster]

Hey Chili...where've ya been?  I've been jonesing for Chili update so long my crack dealer thinks I'm going to her competition.

Also, what the heck happened to my reply to Melonie's reply to my post?  It totally disappeared 3 minutes after I was reading it in the forum.  It couldn't be construed as a bad post in any sense of the imagination...honest.  Are there issues with the boards? Or was I, for some off-the-wall reason censored?

Koz  

[Chili_Palmer]

koz:

Doubt you were censored; probably just some glitch in the UBB somewhere. As far as an update is concerned, I just may be cranking one out over Labor Day; if you want to know the circumstances for the long time between updates, go to Hooters.dk and read about my mini-travails on their Forum.

CP
   

[jayjay88]

Thanks to Melonie and Chilli for the 'real world' facts...as for me, i don't find it hard to imagine pornstars having 'side jobs', especially for the ones who are 'retired'...and many of the big-boobed babes did hardcore porn anyway [Minka, Kayla, Wendy, Tiffany etc].  And especially when you look at the escort sites and see how much money they can earn!...Minka at $1400 or so would seem to be a bargain [if you have the bucks].  The big downside for the woman is that she couldn't chose who to be with and could be paid well for being with some horrific slob of a guy.  [while at least in the pornworld they have some knowledge of who they'll be performig with].

As Melonie says, why not have respect for someone who is up-front about what they are doing...there is far too much hypocritical censuring of the porn industry and of sex in general, in spite of its relative acceptance by modern society.  I think the higher profile and acceptance of pornstars has been a great boon in the last couple of decades...all you have to do is remember even back to the 70's to see the seediness of the whole damn thing...and the slightest good looking babe doing porn was like a miracle!  For the last decade and more, the porn industry, fueled by the video revolution, has spawned an air of respectability. And women who can compete with mainline stars in the looks department, have been drawn to it...all exceedingly good news as far as I'm concerned!

As far as 'having the balls' etc, I would imagine it's easy to be ripped off in the escorting world...and even if you got Linsey, you would possibly be disappointed by a 'I don't have to try because i'm so damn famous' attitude...
no doubt the best way is to rely on recommendation.

Besides i'd choose Minka over Linsey any day, or even Bridget Kerkove, who i see is going for $2000/hr.  

[richardosteele]

The good news is that LDM apparently is escorting -- really! The bad news is that her performance is, well, less than A Girl Friend Experience. One gentleman recently used her services in Florida. Although he rated her looks a "9" as model material, and found her hotel room to be the "perfect setting" for love, he found that the encounter itself was a "3", or "barely worth the effort" because she was "Concerned of (sic) her Alleged Global Popularity." In more extended terms, the fellow had the following to say on www.theeroticreview.com yesterday: "What I thought would be my ultimate conquest were all odds did not favored me became one of my worst meetings ever. Perhaps, after her agents let her know the level of dissatisfaction a hobbyists was in the US she might change for the better but I doubt it." Our faithful correspondent's syntax, grammar, and the like are a bit garbled to say the least but I think you get the idea. The lesson here is, be careful what you wish for ... you might get it. The corollary is that a lot of research is mandated if you are going to schedule a session with a big bust super star. The reviews on Chloe V., for example, have been uniformly enthusiastic; she is apparently over the top in her passion and performance -- a real sweetheart who is worth the money ($2000 or so). Lisa Lipps, on the other hand, is said to be almost obsessed about safety, rules, etc.  That's not necessarily a bad thing but it does take the romance out of the session. In other words, as in all things, caveat emptor. But there are sensational big bust experiences out there to be had.

Richard O. Steele
[email protected].  

[Seelie]

Woah, he's really back! If I'd a known all it'd take is to mention your name in an on-topic way I'd have done it a logn time ago. Thanks for the insight. I was trying to finish my search for your old thread where you talk about why you stopped writing about your experiences. Glad to see you chip in, what you said here was a lot more directly useful.