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TysonWarm

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Re: Modern Marvels
« Reply #165 on: November 01, 2011, 10:36:57 PM »
The F-15C Eagle
Manufacturer: McDonnell Douglass
Power Plant: Two Pratt & Whitney F-100-PW-100 after-burning turbofans
Top Speed: Mach 2.5
Armament: One 20-mm cannon, four AIM-7F Sparrow and four AIM-9L Sidewinder missiles

The first airplane in US history ever designed to maneuver.  With an aerial combat record of 104-0.  No other fighter in the history of aerial combat has a record that even comes close.  The F-15 was far superior to the F-4: accelerating better, turning better, handling better.  Was even used to be a spy satellite killer,  the F-15 acting as a first stage with an ASAT.  In fact, such is the reputation of the F-15 that during the opening phase of Operation Iraqi Freedom, Saddam Hussein's air force simply refused to get in the air. They knew the F-15 would just knock them out of the sky. 

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Bad Kitty

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Re: Modern Marvels
« Reply #166 on: November 03, 2011, 10:02:27 AM »
Well, not the first fighter designed to maneuver, but the first fighter designed to maneuver *while* carrying 24,000lbs of bombs, a few air to air missiles, and extra fuel tanks. Very strong superstructure, and ridiculously overpowered engines FTW. It goes almost mach 3 with the GE F110 replacement engines they retrofitted in the 90's. I can say F-15's were the loudest and fastest thing to fly out of st louis.

I always had a soft spot for the older F-4 though, which my daddy was building back when I was a little kitten. He of course sung the praises of the newer F-15, and even still points out to any who will listen that (while not very stealthy) it can fly rings around the F-22... but I'm a bit more nostalgic, and I liked the "shark teeth" paint jobs on the old F-4's :)
gnothi seauton / fortes fortuna adiuvat
I'm into both Real Life and Fantasy BE, and Sexual Exaggeration in general (among many other things).
I have somewhat exotic body modding plans for myself for RL ;)
I do the 'Bad Kitty' morphs, here and elsewhere.
(I'm not a huge "morph-request" person, I spend a loooong time on them, and I do them primarily for my own enjoyment. Its hard enough to find time to do all the morphs i want to do)

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solvegas

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Re: Modern Marvels
« Reply #167 on: November 03, 2011, 11:20:08 AM »
Yes, the F - 4 proved with big enough engines you can make anything fly. I noticed the F-15 on Tysonwarn's post is an israeli F-15I.  Israeli F-15's have more kills than the americans because of the 1982 Bekaa valley battle where Israel **91** 89 Syrian fighters to none and it was mostly F-15's and F-16 doing that. The reputation is so fearsome that most every other countries it goes against the pilots stay grounded. The syrian Air Force seized being a fighting force ever since and it's now mostly used to keep the local population down like right now.

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TysonWarm

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Re: Modern Marvels
« Reply #168 on: November 03, 2011, 09:30:43 PM »
Actually, the F-15 was the first fighter in US history ever designed to maneuver.  From World War I to 1968, no airplane in US history had ever been designed to maneuver.  Always higher, further and faster.  The F-4 Phantom was a badly flawed aircraft.  The wings go up a bit and the tail goes down.  Those are all band-aids for bad handling and misdesign.  It wasn't even originally equipped with a gun.  The Phantom relied on first generation air to air missiles which were unreliable.  Which means, sometimes they would lock on the sun!  The F-4 just had really big engines.  For a part of the Vietnam War, the Phantom was only getting a 1 to 1 exchange ration against inferior pilots. But, it was the first aircraft to fly concurrently with the Air Force, Navy and Marines.  It also made convicted felon Duke Cunningham the only Navy flying ace of the war.  The Phantom is still in squadron service to this day.  That is a testament to it's longevity. 


As Solvegas noticed, I used an Israeli F-15 because they first went into action with the Israeli air force in March 1978 flying top cover for ground operations in Lebanon.  5 Syrian MIG-21s were downed in this engagement.

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solvegas

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Re: Modern Marvels
« Reply #169 on: November 04, 2011, 12:46:56 AM »
I thought the P-51 Mustang was designed to be quite maneuverable. After it got that Rolls - Royce Merlin engine, it was the best fighter, bar none, of World War 2. It was designed, built and delivered in to the Royal Air Force in 51 days  :o. Unfortunately, it had a shitty engine which limited it to low ( relatively speaking ) level flying. But with the Merlin engine, well ... look out ! Yes, the brits got the A model but the C model, which was put in US service, got that Packard, built under licence, Merlin engine. It also had super long range. When Herman Goring saw them flying over Berlin he knew Germany was beat.

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Bad Kitty

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Re: Modern Marvels
« Reply #170 on: November 04, 2011, 06:53:10 AM »
All fighter planes, since the bi-planes of WWI, have been designed with the primary purpose in mind of destroying enemy aircraft and claiming air superiority in a given area.

There have been a number of fighter aircraft which have broken from the tradition of being maneuverable, in favor of trying to engage enemy aircraft exclusively from beyond visual range with longer ranged missiles. And for a short period of time in the early 60's the USAF design philosophy favored this approach. But throughout most of the past 90 years of air to air combat, "most" fighter aircraft have been designed with a great emphasis on maneuverability.

The F-4phantom was originally designed as an all purpose aircraft, fighter, ground attack, recon, jamming station, etc. and useable from aircraft carriers as well as traditional runways. It's speed, range, payload, all weather capability, etc. were a huge improvement over previous generations of fighter aircraft. Early models were more maneuverable than many previous planes like the F-104, but slightly less maneuverable than something like the F-86 which was built from the ground up for dogfighting. Entering Vietnam with the F-4's there were two problems. 1) the airforce was really pushing this idea of medium & long range missile based fighters which don't need to dogfight. And 2) the airforce had almost no air to air combat training (these problems were related).

In vietnam it quickly became apparent that this philosophy was flawed. So changes were made, both to the F-4, and to the pilot training in the air force. The F-4E was equipped with the now standard 20mm gatling cannon, and had increased flap area, and two additional weapons hardpoints to carry yet more ordinance. It also had leading edge slats added to the wings which greatly improved the plane's maneuverability and resistance to stalls. Improvements were made to the AIM9 sidewinder short range air to air missle, and the existing F-4D models were retrofitted to be able to use sidewinder missiles as well, instead of the horrendously worthless AIM4 Falcon missiles it originally came with. The airforce and navy both instituted elaborate combat training programs for their fighter pilots, the air force at Nellis, and the navy created TopGun. Both taught primarily by ace pilots of previous wars. Between the gun, beefed up handling, and probably more than anything the advanced air combat training, the F4 was doing MUCH better towards the end of the war.

The enemy pilots were not inferior, they were actually very well trained by the USSR. And they took full advantage of our 'rules of engagement' in vietnam to make sure they could always close to dogfight distances at the start of an engagement, catering to the mig's strengths.

F-4's will happily pull enough G's to knock the pilot **61**, like most modern fighters, and can perform any conventional modern jet fighter maneuver which doesn't require a thrust to weight ratio greater than 1:1. The F-4 models E and up (the models go to like S or so) are not that much less maneuverable than the F-16C (at least with the pratt & whitney F100 engine it came with originally).

Worth noting, the J-79 engines in the F4 phantom are not 'huge' by any stretch. On the large side for the time, but not 'huge'. Granted, using two of them did provide more power than anything else flying at the time. They were used in previous jets though. Compared to modern US jet fighters, only the F-16 has less thrust than an F-4. The F-18's engines are slightly smaller, but have a bit more thrust than the j-79's. It was a hot rod by 60's standards, but actually a little slow by 80's standards.

The F-4 was by the way the first plane to dabble in the idea of using a primitive form of "vectored thrust" to increase maneuverability. the rear horizontal stabilizers are one piece titanium skinned flaps, which actually dip into the jet exhaust at high angles of attack, giving the plane a bit more turning power. That's why there's a section of rear horizontal fins which don't get any paint.

I'll grant that the original F-4's (C & D models) had some pretty obvious growing pains, they were good all-around aircraft but bad dogfighters. But on the other side, i'd also argue that the F-4E was one of the first fighters in the world to refine a very good balance between the stability you need for high supersonic flight, with the maneuverability you need to win a subsonic dogfight, and the thrust to do it better than slower dogfight-specific fighters.


If you want huge engines, the F-15 carries the largest (the same as the F-16, but two of them). Technically the engines in the f22 have more thrust, though they are smaller than the f-15's engines.

Anyway, extremely powerful engines are actually a great help to maneuverability. Having more thrust than weight allows a fighter plane to perform a wider range of maneuvers. Some maneuvers you just can't execute without more thrust than plane weight. Additionally, the ability to quickly regain speed lost to elaborate turning maneuvers is also a huge benefit to fighter planes. As is the ability to rapidly gain lost altitude. The F-15 is the most maneuverable plane in the US inventory in part 'because' it has an absurdly huge amount of thrust. And in part because the airframe is super stable and stall resistant, and designed to withstand enough G forces to kill the pilot several times over without cracking.


As far as W/L ratios, it's worth noting that arabic fighter pilots tend to suck, really badly. It's not a racist observation, and it's not their fault really. It's just that arabic governments have a very very strong tendency to completely fail to give them any training beyond basic flight school. Relying on kismet to be victorious hasn't worked out so well for them. Also the export models of aircraft they buy are generally 1000-2000 lbs lighter, because they lack all the cool electronics that would make the planes capable in a modern war. Literally 2 or 3 AWACS planes, or twice that many EA-6's, could make every unfriendly aircraft in a place the size of iraq completely blind on radar, and largely unable to radio communicate. It's pretty unfair. Israel's planes are similarly "stripped down", but they have home-made electronics suites (mostly designs stolen from the US) ready and waiting to be installed when they take ownership of any new planes, giving them a massive advantage over the electronically stripped down aircraft of their neighbors. But i'm sure the f-15 would kick @ss very nicely, even if it wasn't playing on a heavily slanted playing field in most of it's actual combat time.



Here's a modern marvel that they only made one of:

STOL testbed, MTD testbed, F-15E avionics testbed, ACTIVE testbed, and finally adopted by nasa.

It would have been an amazing dogfighter. On the hush hush, it could drop 500mph in seconds, fly at an 85 degree angle of attack, basically it could not be stalled, because it's movements both in and out of stall were controlled and intentional. So it could use stalls, on purpose, just to turn around fast. And it could pitch the nose of the plane away from the plane's actual path of movement, to shoot at other aircraft with the cannon, basically shooting across the inside of a turning path, and use the radar to automatically help guide the cannon's burst onto the target (a la phalanx cannon). and take off & land on runways a fraction of the length needed by the F-15.

Ironically russia liked it even better than the US, and it inspired a pretty cool new model of SU-27/35 called the SU-37:

even without a cold war, they're pretty tight lipped about it's abilities, and don't send them to air shows.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2011, 07:00:15 AM by Bad Kitty »
gnothi seauton / fortes fortuna adiuvat
I'm into both Real Life and Fantasy BE, and Sexual Exaggeration in general (among many other things).
I have somewhat exotic body modding plans for myself for RL ;)
I do the 'Bad Kitty' morphs, here and elsewhere.
(I'm not a huge "morph-request" person, I spend a loooong time on them, and I do them primarily for my own enjoyment. Its hard enough to find time to do all the morphs i want to do)

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solvegas

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Re: Modern Marvels
« Reply #171 on: November 04, 2011, 11:36:02 AM »
Bad Kitty, you are almost too good to be true. A chick that can talk about combat planes ? I know, I know, we live in these God awful politically correct times where that sounds so sexist, racist, blah, blah. But fact is, most women hate to talk about gadgets and big toys. I know it ain't nuthin' about smarts, just most women I guess find the whole thing boring or childish. I remember years ago a girl called Patricia ( Mexican, not American )  who wanted to be a auto designer but her parents did not approve and discouraged it. This was when I was a young lad in Mexico. She used to sneak away from her house and hang around us guys as we read Hot Rod magazine ( The american version. In those days in Mexico there was no spanish ones. ) and other such stuff and we were fluent on small block chevy engines, Mopar parts, etc, etc. Yup, gas in Mexico was about $0.30 a gallon after converting from liters. I have always dreamed about owning a Superbird or a Corvette LS-1 with the six pack carburator and other cars which were out of my reach at the time because I was too young and poor  ;D. Anyways, Patricia, as far as I know, never got to do what she really wanted and became a typical upper class mexican housewife. But I remembered her fondly because she was my first female friend and she loved to hang around the guys more than the girls. Nah, I was too innocent at the time to want to have sex with her. Heck, in those days in Mexico they wouldn't show " I dream of Genie " because of her scandalous outfit. Didn't see the show till we moved to the States and mostly on re-runs. So it's always cool when a Lady don't mind talking about Football, cars and stuff. My girlfriend eyes glaze over if I talk anything about that. Damn, I'm just rattling on so I guess I'll stop.  :)

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pedonbio

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Re: Modern Marvels
« Reply #172 on: November 04, 2011, 06:53:08 PM »

The enemy pilots were not inferior, they were actually very well trained by the USSR. And they took full advantage of our 'rules of engagement' in vietnam to make sure they could always close to dogfight distances at the start of an engagement, catering to the mig's strengths.

Thank you, BK. I have always thought it was greatly demeaning to U.S. pilots, starting with the Korean War, to use the "inferior pilots" meme to cover the serious incompetence in the U.S. general staff. In 1964 I read the first English translation of Giap's People's War, People's Army and I realized that the U.S. command was totally clueless about what they were facing. Of course, decades later we learned that a few people like Col. John P. Vann had tried to change the policy flaws to no avail. What you describe is the tactic of "clinging to the enemy's belt", which the U.S. command never understood nor tried to neutralize.


Quote
Worth noting, the J-79 engines in the F4 phantom are not 'huge' by any stretch. On the large side for the time, but not 'huge'. Granted, using two of them did provide more power than anything else flying at the time.

How I feel about Ms Kardashian's boobs.

And the experimental plane. Wow. The fucker can maneuver like a crop duster, but at Mach 2, I'd wager. More than half the damn plane is control surfaces!

« Last Edit: November 04, 2011, 06:58:39 PM by pedonbio »
Someday, chi1dren, this entire fuck-up will be yours.

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luvdemwhoppers

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Re: Modern Marvels
« Reply #173 on: November 05, 2011, 11:55:46 AM »
While I do find this thread interesting, I'm gonna pull it away from jets.  This doesn't qualify as a "modern" marvel but more of an engineering marvel.  This tractor that was my late grandfathers is my most prized posession.  It is now exactly 70 yrs old and after some work done, it is still working.  It amazes me that after 70yrs it still is working in the fields of the heartland, although not too often.  
When these tractors were made, they made them right.  It was a simple plan, with only 2 cylinders, but I think that is why so many of them are still running these days.  This is my beloved 1941 John Deere B before it got rebuilt.
I spent six hours on it the last weekend hauling over 100 bales.  Not bad for a 70yr old tractor!
Sorry I missed this post. And in keeping with "heartland"
here ya go, made in 'merica. by CAT. Do we still feed the world?
I'm walkin' here

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TysonWarm

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Re: Modern Marvels
« Reply #174 on: November 05, 2011, 02:30:36 PM »
Wow, Bad Kitty.  Are you an instuctor at Top Gun like Maverick's instructor?  The F-86 was given a lot of wing surface because they wanted it to climb really fast to be an interceptor.  They didn't think it would be a dogfighter.  Just by chance, it had so much wing on it.  That it became a truly excellent dogfighter.  It was designed to intercept bombers like the B-47 Stratojet, something which it could not do.  The B-47 was just too fast and had too much acceleration.  The Air Force would send up F-86s and they would very rarely make an intercept.  For a long period of time the B-47 was an insurmountable threat.  The F-86 was a happy accident.  It was the first US fighter to incorporate swept wings and that proved necessary when the MIG-15 appeared out of nowhere over the skies of Korea. 



As for Vietnam, the reason why the MIGs could get so close was because we could not shoot down an enemy plane until we got a visual identification.  That was because we were so scared of accidentally shooting down a Chinese plane and enraging them.  We didn't want a million Chinese soldiers pouring across the border again.  Pedonbio referenced John Paul Vann.  A Bright Shining Lie: John Paul Vann and America in Vietnam by Neil Sheehan is an excellent book and probably sums it up the best about why America struggled so much in Vietnam.  It is hard to fight a war with one foot in a bucket.  Also a book published even before Giap's was The Quiet American by Graham Greene.  Which dealt with the French struggles in Vietnam and that America should not get involved.  This book caused Greene to be under constant surveillance by the US for the rest of his life.

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rtpoe

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Re: Modern Marvels
« Reply #175 on: November 05, 2011, 11:43:25 PM »
To continue to get away from instruments of destruction, I nominate the W.M. Keck Observatory.

Galileo put one lens in front of another. Newton used a curved mirror. For three centuries, that was it for telescope design.

Then in 1985, Howard Keck gave $70 million for the construction of a new telescope. Being the first big telescope of the Computer Age, the designers went nuts....

* Instead of one big piece of glass, make the mirror in segments. It's easier to make, move, and install the segments than one single slab.
* Put it all on an altazimuth mount, since that gives the best support for the mirror.
* Adaptive optics: hook the segments up to computer controlled frames that can adjust them to within a couple of nanometers twice a second, to compensate for any thermal or gravitational stresses, as well as atmospheric turbulence.
* And since you've got the money, build two....

Net result? Eight times the effective mirror area of the Hale Telescope on Mt. Palomar...

http://www.keckobservatory.org/
« Last Edit: November 05, 2011, 11:46:26 PM by rtpoe »
rtpoe

The ground is deep with fallen leaves and nuts of White and Red Oak, and of Beech, that line and fill the footprints and the ruts which all along the wooded pathway reach. First claim, of course, to chipmunk and to squirrel for bleak mid-Winter sustenance belongs, as all around old leaves descend and twirl about, through feathered autumn songs.
"Oakwise", Nut Gathering at Alban Eve

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DruulEmpire

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Re: Modern Marvels
« Reply #176 on: November 06, 2011, 04:28:25 AM »
Primo choice, rtpoe. 8)

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TysonWarm

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Re: Modern Marvels
« Reply #177 on: November 06, 2011, 08:55:47 AM »
Sorry I missed this post. And in keeping with "heartland"
here ya go, made in 'merica. by CAT. Do we still feed the world?

Yes, we do.  My family back in the 30s used to get 10 bushels of corn per acre.  Now, the average around here is 180 bushels per acre.  That will continue to improve with hybrids keep getting better.  I have never seen a combine like the one LDW posted around here.  Though there isn't much wheat here.  Just corn country. 

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mcgarp

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Re: Modern Marvels
« Reply #178 on: November 07, 2011, 03:23:50 AM »
Yes, we do.  My family back in the 30s used to get 10 bushels of corn per acre.  Now, the average around here is 180 bushels per acre.  That will continue to improve with hybrids keep getting better.  I have never seen a combine like the one LDW posted around here.  Though there isn't much wheat here.  Just corn country. 
Nice picture of the combine.  I suspect if you live where there is lots of corn, there is also soybeans.  It's all the same machine.  The wheat head of the combine is the same or extremely similar one used to harvest beans.  Most farmers around me have both heads for their combines.

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luvdemwhoppers

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Re: Modern Marvels
« Reply #179 on: November 17, 2011, 04:58:41 PM »
it does everything but my laundry.
I'm walkin' here