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pedonbio

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The Day Religion Lost The Debate
« on: May 14, 2011, 04:30:26 PM »
Today, May 14, 2011, is the 207th anniversay of the day that the Lewis and Clark expedition, the Corps of Discovery, set out westward from St. Louis, Missouri, for the mouth of the Columbia River. At the time there were five places on earth that were truly unknown to Europeans: The two polar regions, the basins of the Amazon and Congo Rivers, and the Pacific Northwest from San Francisco Bay to Sitka, Alaska, and east to Saint Louis. Robert Gray had very carefully calculated the latitude and longitude of the mouth of the huge river he found, before naming it for his ship, the Columbia.

When they left Saint Louis they knew Gray's location for the mouth of the Columbia, but between those places there were hints, rumors, and suppositions. A few trappers, mostly French, had been through parts of it; Spanish soldiers had wandered about; but mostly there was speculation.

Some of the big speculation we are taught in high school: Was there a water passage to the Pacific? Was there a mountain range someplace? Jefferson thought that the Appalachins were the highest mountains in North America.

But there was one huge speculation that nobody talks about any more.

In the Book of Genesis there are a couple of creation myths, about Gawd making the earth, and the plants, and the animals, and hot women with big tits. And there was a verse in there about each having its place. Remember that; it's important. Christians also suffer from a unique handicap: Alone among religions, they think their Gawd is perfect. That creates a lot of problems. Like, if Gawd created all these animals, and a place for each of them, and It was perfect, then no animal could ever, ever go extinct. Laugh if you will, but on the day Lewis and Clark left Saint Louis, little Catholic kiddies were learning that in school. Folks had known for about a thousand years that nobody had seen a European lion, and in Ireland some folks had discovered the fossils of what we call "megafauna", that sudden mammalian flourishing that started a few million years after the dinosaurs vanished. No one would discover a dinosaur fossil for another 9 years, but the fossils of huge sloths and elk as tall as a three-story building were a bit disturbing to true believers.

The assorted prelates of the assorted churches had a ready explanation: Since Gawd was perfect and none of his critters would ever become extinct, they must be somewhere in that space between Saint Louis and the mouth of the Columbia.

So on the list of ten things President Jefferson wanted his secretary and roommate Lewis to do, one was look around for sloths the size of Chevy Suburbans and European lions. In two years Lewis saw a lot of things, but none of those.

There were a few religious loons who still insisted those animals must be somewhere, but the heavy thinkers knew when they had been licked. And so this is also the anniversary of the day religion lost the debate.
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gOOber

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Re: The Day Religion Lost The Debate
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2011, 06:46:33 PM »
Not that it means anything or that anyone should care, but I am a descendant of Meriwether Lewis.
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pedonbio

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Re: The Day Religion Lost The Debate
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2011, 12:20:49 AM »
Not that it means anything or that anyone should care, but I am a descendant of Meriwether Lewis.

Uhm, I think...

Uh...

Do you mean a descendant of one of his siblings? I'm sure it would come as a suprise to a lot of historians to discover that Lewis had offspring...
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DruulEmpire

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Re: The Day Religion Lost The Debate
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2011, 05:07:53 AM »
I can relate to gOOb.  I'm a great-great-great-great-great-grandnephew of Daniel Boone, although that does nothing for me, it's not like you take one look at me and think "Wow, that guy must have a knack for survivalism!"

I'm intrigued by the "only Christians think God is perfect" claim.  If that's true, then the world is actually in slightly better shape than we ever suspected.  A little more seriously, though, I'm a believer who is usually against Biblical literalism -- right alongside John Cleve Symmes' claim to access a hollow Earth via the poles, or Cyrus Teed's Geokosmos, to say nothing of Ignatius Donnelly or Immanuel Velikovsky.

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gOOber

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Re: The Day Religion Lost The Debate
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2011, 08:13:35 AM »
Uhm, I think...

Uh...

Do you mean a descendant of one of his siblings? I'm sure it would come as a suprise to a lot of historians to discover that Lewis had offspring...
Forgive the wording but I`m supposed to be related in some way. ???
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RandomX

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Re: The Day Religion Lost The Debate
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2011, 12:32:34 PM »
It's fun to look at all the hypocrisy found in religion. This is just one amusing anecdote among hundreds that people with religion refuse to acknowledge.
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3deroticer

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Re: The Day Religion Lost The Debate
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2011, 02:18:35 PM »
I'm related to Noah, the famous ship builder!
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Re: The Day Religion Lost The Debate
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2011, 03:42:43 PM »
^Well, supposedLEE we all are, if one believes the second creation story in Genesis is the gospel truth. :-\

Of course when one considers the amount of animosity and worse humans have shown between all the tribes of Noah's descendants there just might be some truth to it. After all, everyone it seems has experienced such feelings and problems in dealing with their family members.  ::) :P
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pedonbio

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Re: The Day Religion Lost The Debate
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2011, 05:36:35 PM »
I suppose there are some fruitcakes in any religion who have various beliefs, but I think Christians were the first to make "perfection" a mainstream belief. Whatever basis they had for it disappeared with the Lewis & Clark Expedition.

Steven Hawking has created even more problems for Christian theology with the eternal/everlasting paradox: If Gawd is "eternal", then It is outside of time and cannot affect events within time, like the creation of the universe. On the other hand, if It is not eternal, but "everlasting", It cannot exist outside of time, so It did not exist before the universe was created and time began.

Much more interesting, I think, is Lewis's relationship with Jefferson. Jefferson had wanted to go on (or support) an expedition to the West since his childhood. He was a big fan of John Ledyard in the 1770s, and never lost his interest. Lewis moved into the Presidential House (It wasn't painted white until after the fire damage caused by the British in 1812) a few weeks after Jefferson, and it was a Hell of a bachelor pad for the next couple of years--Jefferson was widowed at the time, and we won't go into the Sally Hemmings stuff (Too long). Anyway, it was interesting because Jefferson and Lewis lived there with about a dozen servants, having four or five state dinners each week with all the great minds of the early 19th Century.

The Federalists made a big deal of Jefferson's goofy dress and sloppy housekeeping, but it would have been one Hell of a great time to live there.

I am always impressed, BTW, with the number of great Americans who, like Lewis, never married and left no descendents.

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BTW, gOOb, it is alleged that I am somehow related to Edmund Kirby Smith, but where I live such an assertion is met with empty stares. I don't think he had any offspring, either.

 
« Last Edit: May 15, 2011, 05:51:02 PM by pedonbio »
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sidewalkpsycho

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Re: The Day Religion Lost The Debate
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2011, 05:47:36 PM »
I am always impressed, BTW, with the number of great Americans who, like Lewis, never married and left no descendents.


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Cutter

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Re: The Day Religion Lost The Debate
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2011, 04:37:47 AM »
I'm waiting for the guys in Tennessee to build the 'Full' sized replica of Noahs Arc, or whatever thier interpretation is.

Then I want to see them fit EVERYTHING in there.  All of todays animals, all of the prehistoric dinosaurs AND Mega Fauna.

There are some that INSIST the Dinos were on the arc.  I want a full scale demo of them getting them inside.

I am willing to bet money that it will not work.
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DruulEmpire

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Re: The Day Religion Lost The Debate
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2011, 06:56:08 AM »
Heck, Cutter, I would be willing to bet your AVATAR it would not work.

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gOOber

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Re: The Day Religion Lost The Debate
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2011, 07:48:58 AM »
Joseph Smith in his Book of Morman which I believe takes place in the Americas, has his animals in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Quote
BTW, gOOb, it is alleged that I am somehow related to Edmund Kirby Smith, but where I live such an assertion is met with empty stares. I don't think he had any offspring, either.

I knew there was something I liked about you. ;)
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ROUNDandHEAVY

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Re: The Day Religion Lost The Debate
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2011, 11:11:15 AM »
The paradoxes and flat out lunacy in the bible strains credulity. If someone was selling you a car you'd demand more proof and accept less bullshit.

Even if you were to accept it all as truth, the picture of god would appear alternately as a petulant selfcenrtered brat who only does things to convince lower beings of his glory. He is alternately selfish, spiteful, mass murderous and apathetic, meanwhile he maintains a shaky truce with mankind brokered by his son which still maintains that any transgression can land you in burning hell unless you drop to your knees and beg forgiveness, not to mention that even the good people on earth will one day, at his whim, suffer a violent apocalypse.

If you changed the names in the bible to Zeus and Perseus, etc, you'd call it a myth and wouldn't take such nonsense too seriously.
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RandomX

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Re: The Day Religion Lost The Debate
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2011, 04:47:08 PM »
...Cutter? How long has your spinning diamond had a boob backdrop? Am I REALLY that unobservant? Because I just noticed it right now. :-\
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