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rtpoe

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Some Questions on The Avengers
« on: May 15, 2012, 10:01:26 PM »
Having not seen the movie, and with no significant desire to do so at present, I’m not sure if these questions have been answered therein. Or in many of the other media about them.

But that hasn’t stopped me before!

Nick Fury and the Rules of Engagement

These days, everyone who is part of a military or quasi-military unit going into a potential combat situation has to follow Rules of Engagement. Those nice little laws that, among other things, don’t let you fire on unarmed, non-threatening people. What are the RoE that the Avengers follow? For example, if Captain America needs a ride, under what circumstances is he allowed to commandeer a civilian vehicle? Well, sure, no one is likely to stop him, but will S.H.I.E.L.D. compensate the vehicle’s owner?

Anger Management

Who cleans up after Bruce Banner? Here’s a guy who turns into a virtually unstoppable monster when he gets angry. Does he flip out every time he gets cut off in traffic? Every time he deals with tech support? Is he on serious tranquilizers? He has the potential to destroy a city every time somebody ticks him off. Does S.H.I.E.L.D. pay for his incidental damage? Would it be covered by any insurance policy? Can people sue Bruce Banner for damage done by The Hulk? And without getting him angry?

As American as Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder

We’ll assume that Captain America has been retrained in current military weapons and tactics. Especially since the niceties of modern urban combat are not likely to have been covered in 1940s basic training. But what of Steve Roger’s mental state? Everyone he ever knew, all the girls he dated (or had a crush on), all of his friends and family, are probably either dead or in a nursing home somewhere. He knows nothing of television, space travel was something from the sci-fi pulps, a computer was a person who did number crunching, and the Dodgers still played in Brooklyn (He won’t even know who Vin Scully is!). He is going to need some serious psychological help to deal with all of that! In the meantime, there’s always the possibility that seeing something might trigger a complete nervous breakdown as the memories and the unbearable sense of loss come flooding back.

Oh, and is he due sixty years of back pay?

A Thor Thpot

What’s Thor’s legal status? He wasn’t born in the United States. He’s working for a secret quasi-military organization, with access to sensitive if not outright top secret information and hardware. Did anyone do a background check on him? Is he a citizen or still on a green card? Does he have to report to the INS? Maybe he’s considered an ambassador, or something similar, with diplomatic status and all that entails? I can’t see him as being a colleague from an ally, since as far as I know, the United States has no treaties with Asgard/Midgard/Valhalla or wherever the heck he’s from.

(Yes, I know that in some of the comics S.H.I.E.L.D. is a United Nations agency. But in others, it’s suggested that they are United States organization. The "H" stands for "Homeland", after all. Regardless, they are based in the U.S. Would the U.S. really sit still while a U.N. super-commando unit operated inside their borders, no matter what the threat?)

"…And the Rest"

What about the other members of S.H.I.E.L.D.? You know, Archer Guy and What's-her-name? Are they jealous of the status of their colleagues – the ones that have movies made about them? The politics in the office have *got* to be interesting! Do they complain to Nick Fury about getting equal treatment on the job? Do they have hissy fits and stomp out when Iron Man gets the first crack at all the cool toys? How do you deal with annoyances from a co-worker who might have diplomatic immunity and can call down a lightning strike whenever he feels like it? It’s not like they are a real military unit, where they would each know their roles and would have known procedures for resolving disputes. Nor are they always on active assignments. There’s got to be plenty of times when they are sitting around the office doing paperwork, getting briefed, and being debriefed.

Media Matters

Look, there’s no way in heck you’re going to be able to keep S.H.I.E.L.D. under wraps. You can’t possibly locate and destroy all the ephemera from Captain America’s time in the USO (especially since there are likely to still be people alive who remember seeing him). Try and keep the paparazzi away from billionaire playboy Tony Stark. There cannot be anywhere near enough money in the budget to buy the silence of everyone who sees Bruce Banner turn mean and green. And once word gets out that Nick Fury is taking anti-aging drugs, all hell will break loose. How do they handle the media attention? Do the team members have fan clubs? Is Steve Rogers sent on PR assignments whenever they need to make up for another accident? Are there people who will actually worship Thor? Given what we know about things on the Internet, are there women out there who want to do it with The Hulk?
rtpoe

The ground is deep with fallen leaves and nuts of White and Red Oak, and of Beech, that line and fill the footprints and the ruts which all along the wooded pathway reach. First claim, of course, to chipmunk and to squirrel for bleak mid-Winter sustenance belongs, as all around old leaves descend and twirl about, through feathered autumn songs.
"Oakwise", Nut Gathering at Alban Eve

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solvegas

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Re: Some Questions on The Avengers
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2012, 10:37:32 PM »
Wow, you must be bored if you ponder about fictional characters like this. I do recommend the movie but you should, of course, suspend any thought of logic or scientific accuracy. It is simply a good yarn, chewing gum for the mind and not to be taken with any seriousness.

Re: Some Questions on The Avengers
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2012, 02:55:02 AM »
Though I'm hardly an expert, I've partaken in some discussions about comic-book "reality" with people who are more knowledgeable about what goes on in those colored panels than I am, so I'll pass along some of that info if it'll entertain you.  But one important distinction: in the movies (and in the "Ultimate" Marvel comics continuity), the Avengers are formed under the direction of SHIELD, while in the main comics continuity (aka "616"), the founding members were established heroes that mutually decided they should work together and hang out at a clubhouse in NYC.

Rules of Engagement:
In both cases, the Avengers end up having a pretty loose relationship with SHIELD--they're not a government taskforce, which frees them up to stop villainy that threatens all of Earth, both offworld and anywhere on the planet, without having to consult with a chain of command or political policy.  They do have to answer for their actions, and that's usually where the ties to SHIELD come in, though most of it happens "offscreen."  It's implied that they have the same legal help and considerations that are given to the Fantastic Four (who are also based in NYC).  It's probably worth mentioning that both Avengers and the F4 have friendly ties to major corporations (Avengers have Stark Industries, the F4 have whoever Reed's working with--whoever owns the Baxter Building, I guess).  But at least in the 616 continuity, they eventually mention "onscreen" that both the Avengers and F4 do have legal issues that need to be addressed, and in both cases they're largely handled by the Marvel Universe's best lawyer, who's had time with both teams...She-Hulk.  She had a brief comic series recently where she went to work with a firm that handled "superhero" law cases, and you can check that out if you'd like to see some fun stories along those lines.  Generally speaking though, it seems like very few lawsuits are filed against teams that are personally responsible for preventing the deaths of the people that would file those lawsuits.

Short version: the Avengers do what needs to be done to protect the Earth "in the moment", and let their hired professionals (SHIELD contacts, corporate lawyers) sort out any reparations they need to make after the world's been saved.

Anger Management:
As mentioned above, NYC is host to the Avengers and F4, who have no shortage of foes looking to destroy their homes.  And that doesn't even take into consideration the Hulk's rampages, the fact that Spidey patrols the city and has his own rogues' gallery wrecking the place to get to him, or the times that the X-Men pay a visit from upstate, or the latest demonic horrors attacking Dr. Strange's home (also in NYC).  Consequently, there is in fact an organization--I think it's called "Damage Control", admittedly not very creative--that's mainly concerned with cleaning up and rebuilding all the wreckage from superhero fights.  I believe they're mainly in NYC (they might be a part of Stark Industries), though they probably have branches in other places where such services are needed.  I've read (on the internet, so take it with a grain of salt) that at the end of the movie, the news-ticker scrolling by during the montage of media reactions made reference to Damage Control beginning cleanup in the wake of the attacks.  Oh, and I think in the comics there's probably some kind of superhero-hazard insurance, but it's one of those optional things that you have to decide if you're going to take, so if you don't take it you could be screwed if the Hulk comes crashing down onto your car during one of his cross-country leaps...and for obvious reasons, it's often an important factor for citizens in and around NYC.

Short version: Stuff gets trashed by super-fights, but it's just one more risk in life like **92** drivers or heart attacks (though the super-fights are usually more visually spectacular).  Figure out if you can deal with those risks, knowing that much of the damaged stuff can be replaced or restored.

Post-Traumatic Stress:
Cap's seen plenty of strange stuff in his time...there wasn't a crazy, out-there idea that HYDRA scientists didn't try to weaponize.  If you watched Cap's movie, he gets tech tips from Stark's dad (who almost had a working hovercar), then takes on soldiers with disintegrating rayguns and weird propeller-rocket planes.  Oddball or advanced technology is not going to faze this man.  The social changes might be off-putting, but his crew of buddies in WWII came from all across Europe, so I expect he'll be able to adapt to the cultural differences in time.

Short version: Cap should be fine.  Until Bucky returns, anyway.   :P

Thor:
Most of this sort of stuff can be addressed by my earlier discussion regarding legal issues.  I do believe that Thor's citizenship status does get handled by the Avengers legal team...I think one of the She-Hulk comics even mentioned something about visas for Asgardians.  He's not working directly for SHIELD, but he is working with them in a sort of collaborative effort, so concerns about his access to classified stuff is no more problematic than the access granted to Banner or Stark.  And in all cases, Fury's a pretty paranoid guy and usually steers them away from places they're not supposed to be.  This is probably a very poor analogy, but it's like in spy movies or cop shows, when you have 2 agents or officers of equal rank but come from different countries, or intelligence agencies, or departments.  While there may be some friction or "need-to-know" type problems, they're also perfectly capable of cooperating in a friendly manner, especially when villainy is afoot.

Short version: Thor's not being deported unless he wants to be.

The Rest:
Again, the Avengers are not a military taskforce under SHIELD's authority.  Nick Fury may have brought them together (in the movie/Ultimate continuity), but in the end they are not part of his organization.  That being said, Hawkeye and Black Widow began the movie as SHIELD operatives (and they had been in those roles in the Thor and Iron Man movies, respectively), and I would be surprised if they left their jobs.  In the comics (mainly 616, maybe the Ultimates too), the Avengers roster is filled with reservists--basically, people they have on speed dial in case a crisis comes up and the guys hanging around the clubhouse aren't up to the task.  Spidey, the F4, several of the X-Men, and yes, Black Widow and Hawkeye are all on the Avengers reservist roster (and probably several others I'm forgetting).  What's more, being an Avengers reservist is not in any way being a second-stringer; it's an acknowledgement that you've got your own lives to deal with, but are trustworthy enough to come help save the world when the team needs you.  I expect this is the case with Natasha and Clint; they're going to continue working with SHIELD as before, but will show up when they're needed (and assuming the actors are available  :P).

Short version: Actually, Black Widow and Hawkeye are now the only SHIELD operatives that can also claim the privilege of Avengers membership.  The rest of Fury's staff will probably be jealous of *them*.  At least, until the Avengers are rushed to the front lines to face down the next big world-ending crisis.

Media Matters:
SHIELD is not a secret organization--their missions generally are, though.  Again, another analogy (though poor): they're like the CIA...everyone knows the CIA exists, where their main office is located, and some of their public figures.  What the CIA is actually doing at any given moment, and why they're doing it, and who is involved, is another matter and almost never fully disclosed.  The heroes of the Avengers (well, the ones that aren't active SHIELD operatives) are the public figures in this instance--SHIELD isn't trying to hide Cap or Thor from media attention.  And the media (at least in the various versions of the Marvel Universe) have enough sense to not try and interview Iron Man while he's shooting energy beams at bad guys.  There are issues with secret identities, but that's a whole other storyline...the superhero personas of the Avengers team are generally known and enjoy just as much fame (good, bad, and weird) as any other **29**.  The main difference being that their fame is usually the result of taking actions to save the world (so it tends to skew positively).

Short version: SHIELD largely operates on the down-low, but the Avengers are media darlings, and everyone's actually pretty much okay with that.


Well, I hoped that help resolve some of those nagging questions.  Now you can watch the movie and really enjoy it...have fun!   ;D
« Last Edit: May 16, 2012, 03:00:54 AM by number3fac »
be seeing you...

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solvegas

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Re: Some Questions on The Avengers
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2012, 08:02:04 AM »
Very good answer to rptoe's inquiry. Never having been a big comic book connosiour I never really cared about such matters. This kinda reminds me of hard core trekkies who have expanded upon the original TV series and built an entire world from that.

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rtpoe

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Re: Some Questions on The Avengers
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2012, 08:28:21 PM »
Geez, I thought I was being facetious! Looks like comic book geeks are geekier than I thought...
rtpoe

The ground is deep with fallen leaves and nuts of White and Red Oak, and of Beech, that line and fill the footprints and the ruts which all along the wooded pathway reach. First claim, of course, to chipmunk and to squirrel for bleak mid-Winter sustenance belongs, as all around old leaves descend and twirl about, through feathered autumn songs.
"Oakwise", Nut Gathering at Alban Eve

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gOOber

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Re: Some Questions on The Avengers
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2012, 09:14:33 PM »
 ;)
....rejoicing in the fullness thereof....

Re: Some Questions on The Avengers
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2012, 09:40:39 PM »
Geez, I thought I was being facetious!

I thought as much, but I was bored and no one I know in real life wants to hear me explain all that stuff (mostly because they're the ones who told me about it).  I just found it interesting that, after comic book fans bring up issues like those over the years, some of the comic writers actually made the effort to address it within the comics.  It's the circle of geekdom!   :P
be seeing you...

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TheZookie007

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Re: Some Questions on The Avengers
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2012, 03:51:23 AM »
Thor's alter ego, Donald Blake, is a doctor, presumed American.
AOC, HC, TW, BO, KH: FU. FUATH. 100x.

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Feral

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Re: Some Questions on The Avengers
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2012, 07:51:48 AM »
Geez, I thought I was being facetious! Looks like comic book geeks are geekier than I thought...

...says the geek that wrote out all that in his original comment.  :)

« Last Edit: May 17, 2012, 07:53:42 AM by Feral »

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DruulEmpire

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Re: Some Questions on The Avengers
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2012, 05:22:17 PM »

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SwitcherX

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Re: Some Questions on The Avengers
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2012, 12:42:00 AM »
 :D
Switcher X
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-- Mammeister


"SwitcherX, you were always Mammeister's favorite...you bastard."
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TheZookie007

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Re: Some Questions on The Avengers
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2020, 08:30:23 PM »
SEVEN. YEARS. LATER.*

Now would be a good time to revisit this post.



* If you watched the penultimate movie in Marvel's Phase 3, you will understand the reference.
AOC, HC, TW, BO, KH: FU. FUATH. 100x.

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TheZookie007

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Re: Some Questions on The Avengers
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2021, 05:22:46 PM »


Anger Management

Who cleans up after Bruce Banner?
Here’s a guy who turns into a virtually unstoppable monster when he gets angry. Does he flip out every time he gets cut off in traffic? Every time he deals with tech support? Is he on serious tranquilizers? He has the potential to destroy a city every time somebody ticks him off. Does S.H.I.E.L.D. pay for his incidental damage? Would it be covered by any insurance policy? Can people sue Bruce Banner for damage done by The Hulk? And without getting him angry?

Tony Stark has a long-term contract with the US government to manage the cleanup operations. That's part of what motivated the Vulture to start his crime spree in Spider-Man: Homecoming -- his company got muscled out of the gig of cleaning up after The Battle for New York (that was first shown in The Avengers and later on from a different perspective in Avengers: Endgame).

As for who would represent Bruce Banner/The Hulk in a court case resulting from him smashing stuff, he could always call on his cousin Jennifer Walters aka She-Hulk. She's a lawyer who specializes in such representation.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2021, 05:38:32 PM by TheZookie007 »
AOC, HC, TW, BO, KH: FU. FUATH. 100x.

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solvegas

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Re: Some Questions on The Avengers
« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2021, 06:20:33 AM »


Anger Management

Who cleans up after Bruce Banner?
Here’s a guy who turns into a virtually unstoppable monster when he gets angry. Does he flip out every time he gets cut off in traffic? Every time he deals with tech support? Is he on serious tranquilizers? He has the potential to destroy a city every time somebody ticks him off. Does S.H.I.E.L.D. pay for his incidental damage? Would it be covered by any insurance policy? Can people sue Bruce Banner for damage done by The Hulk? And without getting him angry?

Tony Stark has a long-term contract with the US government to manage the cleanup operations. That's part of what motivated the Vulture to start his crime spree in Spider-Man: Homecoming -- his company got muscled out of the gig of cleaning up after The Battle for New York (that was first shown in The Avengers and later on from a different perspective in Avengers: Endgame).

As for who would represent Bruce Banner/The Hulk in a court case resulting from him smashing stuff, he could always call on his cousin Jennifer Walters aka She-Hulk. She's a lawyer who specializes in such representation.

And to summarize, Zookie has too much free time on his hands.  ;) ;D

( Just kidding  ;D )

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TheZookie007

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Re: Some Questions on The Avengers
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2021, 04:26:18 PM »
Speaking of the Avengers:

#DontSpoilWandaVision
AOC, HC, TW, BO, KH: FU. FUATH. 100x.