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TheZookie007

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Trayvon Martin
« on: July 13, 2013, 11:04:12 PM »
BBC News: "George Zimmerman not guilty of Trayvon Martin murder"

George Zimmerman, the Florida neighbourhood watchman who shot dead an unarmed black 17-year-old male last year, has been found not guilty.

Lawyers for Mr Zimmerman, 29, argued he acted in self-defence and with justifiable use of deadly force in the death of Trayvon Martin.

The jury retired on Friday to consider its verdict on charges of either second-degree murder or manslaughter.

The case sparked a fierce debate about racial profiling in the US.

Protesters are gathering, reports the BBC's David Willis, in Sanford, the Florida town where the shooting took place.

Police and community leaders have appealed for calm.
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Robin_K2

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2013, 11:11:52 PM »
I'm coming to the details of this rather late, as it was all a sideshow. Yet I fail to understand how an armed man can kill an unarmed man in "self defense."

In TV Westerns, the heroes never drew on unarmed men. We're now failing even our own violent fiction.

Too many guns, and the "stand your ground" and "castle" laws are licenses for murder.

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TheZookie007

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2013, 11:14:57 PM »
The New Yorker: "George Zimmerman, Not Guilty: Blood On The Leaves"

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...There will be a great deal said about what the verdict in this trial means, but most fundamentally we should understand that it means validation for the idea that the actions Zimmerman took that night were rational, the conclusions he drew sound, and that a black teen-ager can be considered armed any time he is walking down a paved street.
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Robin_K2

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2013, 11:42:57 PM »
Just now, from The New York Times:

“We are outraged and heartbroken over today’s verdict,” said Benjamin Todd Jealous, president of the N.A.A.C.P. “We stand with Trayvon’s family and we are called to act. We will pursue civil rights charges with the Department of Justice, we will continue to fight for the removal of Stand Your Ground laws in every state, and we will not rest until racial profiling in all its forms is outlawed.”

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TheZookie007

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luvdemwhoppers

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2013, 04:42:48 AM »
not everything is fucked up in Florida
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TheZookie007

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2013, 04:56:15 AM »
Fuck Florida. There's been nothing but bad news from that idiotic state since 2000. If it isn't "hanging chads", it's "Stand Your Ground". Fuck them. I will never spend a thin dime in that state ever again. Fuck them all to hell.

(gathers himself)

Meanwhile, actor Lance Gross posted this open letter.
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luvdemwhoppers

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2013, 07:57:48 AM »
^thank you for being so cordial and lacking in a sense of humor.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2013, 08:02:25 AM by luvdemwhoppers »
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Hark

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2013, 04:35:23 PM »
This is just a personal opinion.  I'm not here to pick apart other's opinions, so let's keep it civil.  There are those here on the Forum that get vitriolic over differing views...

I think certain people have forgotten the whole process.  Zimmerman was acquitted by a jury of his peers, because the prosecution failed to make a strong case; the defense prevailed. 

It's extremely difficult to prove racial intent against Zimmerman, but I will say I think he's a wannabe cop asshole, possibly deluded by the idea he's top dog, and nobody will fuck with him.  I believe he saw Martin, and instead of identifying himself, he followed (stalked?) Martin.  I also believe Martin just wanted to be left alone, and instead of just asking Zimmerman "Why are you following me?", he either ignored (didn't take Zimmerman seriously?) or attacked Zimmerman, depending on who's side you're on.  Somehow, a fight erupted, and Martin ended up dead.  Zimmerman's story & details seemed to conflict with apparent facts, but the jury just didn't buy it. 

I think Martin's family could & should file a civil rights violation, certainly a civil case, or a wrongful death suit.

In the end, Zimmerman's life as a normal human being is over.  Is he a murderer?  I don't think so; I think he lacked intent.  Will he do it again?  I doubt it...why would he?  That close to the threat of prison, he won't place himself in that situation again.

I may write more later; I had a similar situation happen to me years ago...
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Zorro

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2013, 06:42:30 PM »
It does not matter what state this trial took place in. It was the circumstances and results.

I lived in Florida from 1999 to 2008 and it was not because of this sort of situation.

I left due to the excessive heat, humidity and a chance to be near my children.

During my time their I only had one incident where a gun was involved and the outcome of that situation was different.

I was the post quartermaster (treasurer) of my VFW post when one of our members became violent and threatening so I put him out of the building and would not let him back in.

I had some errands to run and during the time I had left he returned with a sawed off shotgun and homemade explosive. He wanted to blow up the building and use the shotgun on me.

When I returned I was informed that he had forced his way back in the the bldg and threatened everyone there and more or less stated he would shoot me on sight.

Luckily the police station was 2 blocks away and I called them.

When he saw the cop cars he darted back to his car and fled.

The police were there within minutes and after they got the full story a few of them took off to this guy's  home. He was arrested within about 30 minutes after they cleared his neighborhood because of the explosives.

If he would have just taken his **92** ass home and stayed there, I am sure that would have been the end of it.

Each time his trial date came up we (those who were there that night) were sent a summons. Each time his lawyer had the hearing date extended. After the 3rd time the judge got fed up and announced that the defendant will plead now and the extensions were over.

Needless to say he got 5 years and put on probation plus fined about $25,000.00 plus court costs.

All this happened before the attack on the World Trade center so he wasn't facing charges of terrorism and making his own explosives.

In the meantime I had joined the U.S. Military Vets Motorcycle Club and was advised by the cops to get a concealed weapons permit.

About 6 months later I ran into this clown at another veterans function and he half-assed tried to threaten me. I unsnapped the leather vest chains and the handles of both of my guns were now visible. (That's right I carried 2 guns)

Needless to say he backed away and fled again.

This man had previously threatened the lives of a lot of people one night and I was sure he would do it again because he had already did it once and got away with it.

Would I have shot him? I really do not know. To me he was a worthless piece of human garbage, but he also suffered from PTSD and alcohol/drug abuse.

I do not know what all the circumstances of the Zimmerman/Martin incident are. I was not there.

Here in the United States a person is innocent until  proven beyond a reasonable doubt for a guilty verdict is given.

At that time I lived in Florida, a concealed weapon permit only gives you permission to carry and you can only pulled that weapon if you life is in immediate danger.

Regretfully a life was taken and that is something Mr. Zimmerman has to live with the rest of his life.

This story is not over and I can only hope that there isn't any other lives destroyed because that will not bring the deceased back.
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TheZookie007

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2013, 07:06:34 PM »
^thank you for being so cordial and lacking in a sense of humor.

Oh, I totally have a sense of humor. Just not when it comes to this particular state of affairs. Or that state, come to think of it. So, I apologize in advance to all the members of this Forum who hail from Florida, or who have friends & family there, or who make their living there. But your state...man.
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TheZookie007

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2013, 07:25:34 PM »
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It's extremely difficult to prove racial intent against Zimmerman,

I rather disagree with you, especially considering what he said on the tapes ("these <racial epithet deleted>...they always get away")...what his father has been saying...what his brother has been saying all over the news media (effectively blaming the victim as well as slandering the dead)...I think the preponderance of the evidence shows that, yes, he most definitely had negative racial intent towards Trayvon. The young man was profiled. He "fit a certain type", namely a black kid who "looked suspicious" only because he was black.

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but I will say I think he's a wannabe cop asshole, possibly deluded by the idea he's top dog, and nobody will fuck with him.  I believe he saw Martin, and instead of identifying himself, he followed (stalked?) Martin.  I also believe Martin just wanted to be left alone, and instead of just asking Zimmerman "Why are you following me?"

The kid is walking home from the store and a strange white man starts following him. I don't know...it seems to me that the prudent thing to do is to try to get away from the dude as fast as possible and not bother asking "Who are you and why are you following me?"

Apart from that, yes, I agree with this.

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, he either ignored (didn't take Zimmerman seriously?) or attacked Zimmerman, depending on who's side you're on.  Somehow, a fight erupted, and Martin ended up dead.  Zimmerman's story & details seemed to conflict with apparent facts, but the jury just didn't buy it.  

Now that ("his story & details seemed to conflict with apparent facts") is the understatement of the day :)

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I think Martin's family could & should file a civil rights violation, certainly a civil case, or a wrongful death suit.

I agree. I think this is going to play out like the OJ Simpson case did, except in reverse.

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In the end, Zimmerman's life as a normal human being is over.  

In my opinion: good. He is not the victim here. The young man whose life he took away is. He shouldn't have put himself in that situation. All of this could have been avoided if he had heeded those simple words from the dispatcher: "You don't need to be following him."

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Is he a murderer?  I don't think so; I think he lacked intent.

And the jury agrees with you. He, technically, is not a murderer. However, he did kill someone. He doesn't deny killing Trayvon either. I'm not 100% sure you can say that "he lacked intent", though. If it is true that he had the gun in the waistband of his trousers, behind him, and if it is true that Trayvon was straddling him and on top of him and holding him down...how did he get access to the gun in order to shoot Trayvon?

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Will he do it again?  I doubt it...why would he?  That close to the threat of prison, he won't place himself in that situation again.

Again, the OJ Simpson situation is instructive here.

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I think certain people have forgotten the whole process.  Zimmerman was acquitted by a jury of his peers, because the prosecution failed to make a strong case; the defense prevailed.
 

Yup.

-- TheZookie "See, I told you I have a sense of humor" 007
« Last Edit: July 15, 2013, 07:39:29 PM by TheZookie007 »
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Robin_K2

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2013, 07:56:14 PM »
Despite sharply divergent opinions, I see some common ground here. For example, I think we all agree that Zimmerman is a complete ass.

I wonder what his police department really thinks of him. They told him not to pursue Martin, not to leave his car. I'm sure they just love citizens going all Batman on them.

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TheZookie007

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2013, 08:03:34 PM »
It does not matter what state this trial took place in. It was the circumstances and results.

Actually, it does matter. If the state in question is one in which the ALEC-written "Stand Your Ground" laws are in effect, it absolutely does matter.

I can't post the link because the thumbnail features a 17-year-old kid, but if you go to the Young Turks channel on YouTube and search for the video titled "Why People Should Be Outraged at Zimmerman's 'Not Guilty' Verdict", Cenk Uygur lays it out better than I'm sure I am now doing. I know he shouts a lot, but try and ignore that while you examine his thesis.
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Hark

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2013, 08:25:08 PM »
This is my experience, and it's the greatest teacher of all...

I was an MP stationed at Ft. Benning, Ga. in Jan 2000.  Most of my calls were shoplifting or verbal domestic disputes.  I had stopped off at the security office of the PX (Post Exchange), when the security ladies had mentioned they were observing two young black males.  One had slipped several CDs into his jacket (I’ll call him CD), the other kept watch (called Watcher).  CD had an arm hidden under his winter jacket, so we weren’t able to ascertain if he was armed or not, or just easier to hold more CDs.  CD was about 5’11”, maybe 6’ even; Watcher was about my height, 5’9”.

I followed the security lady toward the males, since they had to leave store grounds before she could approach, to give them a chance to pay or give back the CDs; I could only approach afterward.  Though Watcher was silent, CD was belligerent, cursing us both with loads of ‘Fuck you, bitch’, ‘Get away from me, mother fucker’, etc.

I got on the radio and requested backup, but our reception was awful (our radio tower was struck by lightning several weeks earlier, awaiting repairs), so I wasn’t fully sure my transmissions were received.  The security lady was able to talk Watcher into staying put, but CD left the building, refusing my instructions to step back into the store area.

He walked out of the store, cursing and ignoring me.  I stayed with him, but never touching him.  At this point, I had every legal right & authority to grab him, and throw him down to the ground, and cuff him…but I didn’t.  This wasn’t over a fight, breaking & entering, stolen car, etc.  It was over stolen CDs, which I personally didn’t see him take.  He got about 60 ft. into the parking lot, when I noticed another squad running code 2 (lights on, accelerated speed).  My radio traffic was heard.  I said to CD, “You’re not going to be able to talk to both of us like that.”
 
He bolted.  I ran in the Army, meaning in formation, at a steady pace, and not particularly fast.  This guy was gone like a track star!  Mind you, running in a t-shirt, shorts, and sneakers is one thing; running in a starched & pressed uniform, jungle boots (soft nylon sides), and a leather police duty belt is another form of torture.  He crossed the parking lot (100 m) and made it to a pedestrian bridge before I had even crossed half the lot!  The bridge had two ascending levels, the crossing portion, and two descending levels, and a path leading to a residential area.  I had called ahead, stating his eventual destination.  He had crossed the bridge, dropping the remaining CDs along the way.  While crossing the bridge, two units had passed underneath, presumably to intercept him.  I came off the bridge, and was able to see thru a yard between two houses a patrolman exit his vehicle, yelling at my suspect to stop.  I followed the patrol around the house to my left, only to discover two more units had tackled him just a few feet from the bridge exit.  He had intended to jump me from behind.

With two units on him, we pulled his jacket off, and realized why he had his arm hidden: it was in a shoulder sling.  He had dislocated it a week earlier.  I stood over him, proudly stating: “You couldn’t outrun my radio, could you!?”  Knowing my blood was up, another unit stopped me from any further boasting.  I traced my steps, collected the CDs, found his hat, signed for the security footage, and drove back to the station.  When I arrived, the father, a Master Sergeant, had arrived to pick up CD.  Just as they were leaving, I tossed CD his hat, saying “You dropped that, too”, with a definitive ‘fuck you’ tone.

I don’t know what happened to CD, but as a general rule, when a military dependent is arrested, charged, and/or investigated by MPs, the sponsor (soldier) must report to their CO (commanding officer).  I don’t remember what unit or position the father was in, but I’m guessing he had to report to a Lt. Colonel to ensure he can get his shit together.  This also goes on the soldier’s record, for a possible security threat.  A soldier with a family in turmoil is a threat, no matter how trivial.
 
The lesson I took away from this was no matter how righteous I was, I refused to escalate the situation, and let it go from bad to worse.  Even years after Rodney King, I didn't want to be associated with the story of 'white MP beats unarmed black teenager with a shoulder sling.'  The detail that his arm was under the jacket, therefore unknown to me of his injury, would be conveniently forgotten.  In my opinion, if Zimmerman had only done what I did, and not escalate, but be more communicative, I think Martin might still be alive. 
Embrace the facts, uphold the truth.