[Dearc]

Quote:
TheZookie007 said:
I don't understand what that admittedly non-scientific poll was trying to measure. But the, what do you expect from CNN's resident O'Reilly-alike, Lou Dobbs?

Woah!  If you believe Dobbs is akin to O'Reilly (whom is a f*cking moron), who would you consider a moderate?  One whom looks out for middle class America?  If there's a Net-guru news guy operating out of his mom's basement, good for him...  

I agree with Dobbs about %90 of the time, and is the only one reporting on stories that I NEVER hear on the other networks.  I've read 3 of his books, and mostly impressed.

But didn't you say you don't have cable?  Are you basing your assessment from the Net?

I also feel the need to apologize for a previous remark I made.  Writing mass millions of unfortunate people off to their fates is obviously an assanine thing to believe.  It's just how can a culture be a productive and hopeful one, while it lives off of perpetual handouts?  We should modernize & reinstitue the  Marshall Plan.  Just a thought.

[MasterDragonfly]

 Barack and Michelle, touching, kissing, ... err, fisting?!?  (courtesy of The Soup)

[TheZookie007]

Quote:
Dearc: Woah!  If you believe Dobbs is akin to O'Reilly (whom is a f*cking moron), who would you consider a moderate?  One whom looks out for middle class America?

Looking out for middle-class America by insisting that the only border we need to secure is our southern one, puts him in the O'Reilly class to me. I don't appreciate racism/classism masquerading as patriotism/concern for our middle class.

Quote:
But didn't you say you don't have cable?  Are you basing your assessment from the Net?

I used to watch A LOT of CNN International back in the 80s/90s and I enjoyed Lou very much when he stuck to his main area of expertise, the business world. His was my favorite business show. And although I don't have cable, I still watch his show when I get the chance, and I watch clips of his show on CNN.com, and by and large, I'm not impressed any more. We have problems that require equitable solutions, not an endorsement of xenophobia.

Quote:
We should modernize & reinstitue the  Marshall Plan.  Just a thought.

I completely agree.

[3deroticer]

The Marshall plan is a liberal plan, and this eats up the heart of the republican and they hate it that it work, because it goes against their philosophy of conservative ideals. We help Germany and Japan out of their hole with cooperative joint venture of making product for the economy. Nikon camera was an example of the product using Germans precision lens for the Japanese camera body.

Barack Obama  just sent some harsh word to the bankers of Wall Street on giving themselves a 20 billion dollar bonus to the executive. Plus another bank just bought themselves 2 more lear jets, and buy out smaller banks with their bail-out money on the taxpayers backs.

I am already piss that Bank of America use the bailout money to lobby against employees right to form a union.

These Bankers think they are too big for the economy to live without them.

Im curious if anyone think we should have let the bankers fall and support smaller company that will work harder for our money? By bailing out larger company, are we sustaining the monopoly syndrome? Are we letting huge company hold the people of the nation in hostage situation?

[Dearc]

Quote:
TheZookie007 said:  Looking out for middle-class America by insisting that the only border we need to secure is our southern one, puts him in the O'Reilly class to me. I don't appreciate racism/classism masquerading as patriotism/concern for our middle class.

His idea to send 12-20 million illegals home for slips of paper is not only logistically & administratively impossible, but reminiscant of some similar move by a bunch of pissed off Germans 60 years ago. It's not racist  because  they're Hispanics; they're illegals whom  happen to be  Hispanics.  This is for another thread, but thanks for chatting with me.

[TheZookie007]

Quote:
Dearc: It's not racist  because  they're Hispanics; they're illegals whom  happen to be  Hispanics.

Then in that case, seal up the borders, both borders, the one to the south (Mexico) AND the one to the north (Canada). If you do only the one in the south to keep out illegals who just happen to be Hispanics, then you should do the one in the north to keep out illegals who just happen to be Anglo. If you don't then that is clearly racist.

[ROUNDandHEAVY]

Yeah because Canadiens are streaming across the border, taking our jobs and sending the money back home to relatives.

Listen yoiu want to have a real discussion about how Mexican workers are exploited by being forced into shadow citizenship by immigration laws that are outdated and ignorant of reality, fine I'm with you, but comparing Mexican immigration to Canadien immigration is a lame and naive excuse for an argument.

[ROUNDandHEAVY]

Quote:
Dearc said:
Not a good sign...

From Lou Dobbs Tonight:

A president that mimics President Bush with fearmongering to pass legislation, a Congress that doesn't read legislation and a deep partisan divide. Do you believe this is change?
Yes 12% 320  
No 88% 2422  
Total Votes: 2742  

This is not a scientific poll.

http://loudobbs.tv.cnn.com

Although I do appreciate the move to reach out to Muslims the other day.  It'd be nice to get them to steal the wind out of Al Qaida's sails, instead of trying to bomb the shit out of them into submission.

 

Love the way you cite what even you call an unscientific poll.

That's like citing the Errol Flynn film "They Died With Their Boots On" to infer General George Custer was a selfless war hero and not a genocidal maniac and then adding as an afterthought a brief warning that the film was not an accurate portrayal of history.

After the last 8 years, can we please skip referring to unscientific polls conducted by ideologues?

[pedonbio]

Quote:
ROUNDandHEAVY said:
Yeah because Canadiens are streaming across the border, taking our jobs and sending the money back home to relatives.

Listen yoiu want to have a real discussion about how Mexican workers are exploited by being forced into shadow citizenship by immigration laws that are outdated and ignorant of reality, fine I'm with you, but comparing Mexican immigration to Canadien immigration is a lame and naive excuse for an argument.

I think Zookie was making the same point I've tried to make several times: Getting all puffed up about undocumented aliens, or illegals, or whatever you call them, and then focusing only on people from Mexico has an unpleasant smell to it. Does that mean that illegals who have light skin, blond hair and speak English are "less illegal"?

My pet gripe during the Congressional "debate" a couple of years ago was that there was one huge bill that pretended to take care of border security, which was unrelated to worker exploitation, which was unrelated to terrorism, which was unrelated to under-funding the State Department, but the demagogues wrapped them all together, wrapped themselves in a flag, and drove off a cliff.

I'm certainly not ranting at you, R&H; like you, I'm slightly pissed at a Mexican government which exports its social problems so it doesn't have to clean itself up, but I am REALLY pissed at a U.S. government that winks and nods at what Mexico does. If the people who are driven north by the poverty that a corrupt Mexican government encourages, instead stayed in Mexico, there would be a revolution and a few Mexican politicians would lose their offices, and maybe their heads.

[ROUNDandHEAVY]

Not to rant back at you, but I think we have a fundamental disagreement.

I still say its not a racial issue, its a class issue. The fact that mostly mexican people are streaming across the border is because of the great economic chasm, not because of their skin color.

To frame the argument otherwise is to be flirting with racism.

I suspect the Lou Dobbs's of the world would be spewing the same xenophobic crap if Canadiens were "stealing" good old American jobs and defying our sacred borders.

Ideological nutjobs like the border Nazis, have already proven that just being a member of the wrong political party is enough to warrant distrust and suspicion. This border flap is just another way for people to fan the flames of fear and intolerance.

Next time these people are feeling self important they should try cutting grapes and lettuce and a host of other food out of their diet.

Really people these people come here because our version of slave wages is a step up financially to them. as such they provide as service to us by taking back breaking jobs NO ONE wants, treating them like criminals is a national embarrassment. Classism at its worst.

But it has not one iota of relevance to race.

[MasterDragonfly]

Quote:
ROUNDandHEAVY said:
I suspect the Lou Dobbs's of the world would be spewing the same xenophobic crap if Canadiens were "stealing" good old American jobs and defying our sacred borders.

Some months back cherri and I met up with other expat Canadians (and their spouses).  Eventually the conversation drifted to our individual border-crossing experiences.

One couple (both Canadian, as I recall) related one interesting interaction during their process of getting their green cards.  The officer in question said "I'm sick and tired of you Canadians taking away American jobs!"  And he wasn't just joking, he was dead serious.  This was after allll the other various approvals and hoop-jumping had been completed; these weren't people dashing across the border (or swimming across the St Lawrence).

And these were people who had done things the *right* way.

Fortunately, that particular officer wasn't the final checkpoint.  I'll skip over various other events preceeding this moment which made my jaw swing in the breeze; basically when they entered the final room (a very plain and simple one, as I recall them describing it), an officer sitting at a desk stood up, hand extended, and said "Welcome to the United Stated of America."

It was quite a long process for them.  No wonder the current process for a casual applicant is on the order of 12 years.

(Sidebar:  It's 'Canadians'.  'Canadiens' would be that Montreal hockey team.  )

[ROUNDandHEAVY]

I was under the impression that was the proper spelling in french, hence the name of the hockey team.

My bad.

[Dearc]

Quote:
ROUNDandHEAVY said:

Love the way you cite what even you call an unscientific poll.

That's like citing the Errol Flynn film "They Died With Their Boots On" to infer General George Custer was a selfless war hero and not a genocidal maniac and then adding as an afterthought a brief warning that the film was not an accurate portrayal of history.

After the last 8 years, can we please skip referring to unscientific polls conducted by ideologues?

I'm not tracking as to how you can compare Dobbs to Custer, but whatever you like.

The "unscientific" part was posted with the actual poll, not my own statement.  And much of the time, I believe Dobb's notions, guesses, insinuations and beliefs over some others facts.

Yes, we need to secure all borders.  At the moment, I can't remember the last time a foreign-born Canadian citizen tried to commit an act of terrorism in/on the U.S.  We also need to stop the Mexican gov't from actually instructing people not only how to cross the border illegally, and to getting to the safehouses in the U.S.  I'm sure all factors-race, class status, intention/resistance to assimilation, criminal background if applicable, etc-all play a role for individual cases.  What may be true for a guy in Texas, is way off from a woman & her k!ds in California.

No matter how anyone looks at this, there's no easy quick fix to make everyone happy.  Someone always gets screwed.

[TheZookie007]

Quote:
ROUNDandHEAVY: I suspect the Lou Dobbs's of the world would be spewing the same xenophobic crap if Canadiens were "stealing" good old American jobs and defying our sacred borders.

Then they'd better take a long hard look at Saturday Night Live, which was started by a Canadian (Lorne Michaels) and has had so many Canucks in and on that show (Mike Myers, Jim Carrey, Dan Aykroyd, Paul Shaffer, Martin Short, etc. etc.) that it's not even funny any more.

[MasterDragonfly]

Quote:
ROUNDandHEAVY said:
I was under the impression that was the proper spelling in french, hence the name of the hockey team.

Well it is the correct spelling in French, hence the derivative name of the hockey team.  The name of the team will always be "Canadiens" simply because it's the official name, just like the Toronto Maple Leafs doesn't get corrected to "Maple Leaves" in order to be grammatically correct.

"Canadiens" is just not the name that Anglo-Canadians, the British, Australians, New Zealanders, South Africans, and (presumably) Americans use to refer to citizens of Canada.  My guess is this is a pretty universal reference in English, no matter which dialect.  

Franco-Canadians are pretty proud of their French language heritage, and Montreal's (not "Montréal", that would be the French spelling) home province of Quebec (not "Québec", that would be the French spelling) is culturally and linguistically in stark contrast to the rest of Canada.  Montreal isn't too bad, but you don't need to drive too far before discovering just how different it is.

But I thought your language of preference was English, not French...?  To give this better context, do you refer to citizens of your country as Americans, or do you refer to them as citoyens des États Unis?

I'm trying to make this distinction a little clearer, since it tends to direct the context somewhat.  My guess is it wouldn't be all that different from me overhearing a conversation which sounded like Spanish (without being crystal clear on which dialect) and me saying "Well I was listening to this Spanish guy the other day" and having someone here correct me by saying something like "Unless he was from Spain, he might actually have been Puerto Rican (or Mexican, or ...)" and then getting directed to use a more all-encompassing term.  (I'm actually a little unclear on this one; I think that 'Hispanic' is the preferred all-encompassing term?  Or is it 'Latino'? )