[Zorro]

http://survivaljoe.net/blog/10-things-weve-learned-from-the-bundy-ranch-standoff-so-far/?utm_source=140413SJ1&utm_campaign=140413SJ1

Here are 10 things we’ve learned from the Bundy Ranch standoff so far:

#1. The federal government has absolutely no respect for state rights.

#2. If we are to believe the BLM, they care more about the “rights” of desert tortoises than the rights of human beings.

#3. Force is the only language the BLM knows how to speak. This bureau is just as bad as any other power-tripping government agency, of which there are many: CIA, FBI, NSA, NEA, EPA, ATF, FDA, etc.

#4. Nevada Senator Harry Reid is perhaps the greediest and most corrupt politician in Washington. (Actually, we already knew that, but this just reinforces it.)

#5. All those Nevadans who have positions of authority in the government (Governor Brian Sandoval, Clark County Sheriff Douglas Gillespie, County Commissioner Tom Collins, etc.) are either complicit with the federal government’s attempt to steal the Bundy’s cattle or they are too scared to do anything about it.

#6. Whenever the government offers justification for the use of force, there is always a stated reason — the pretext — and then there is the real reason, which usually has to do with profits and power. In the case of the BLM’s cattle-grab, the pretext was to protect the desert tortoise. The real reason was to build a solar farm.

#7. When Americans show up in numbers to oppose illegal government action, the Feds back down.

#8. The Feds have no problem spilling American blood on foreign soil (using drone strikes), but are not yet ready to spill American blood on American soil.

#9. If something like this can happen in Nevada, it can happen in any of the other 49 states.

#10. There is no limit to what the federal government will do to strip states of their sovereignty and further enslave the American people.


I have strong feelings about this event and am thankful that it ended peacefully, but the potential for violence was there though.

Anyone old enough to remember the Kent State massacre where the national guard opened up on unarmed college students killing 4 of them?

Ruby Ridge?

Waco?

There were government snipers at the Bundy ranch.
Just who were they going to shoot first?

The hundreds if not thousands who started showing up were advised not to wear camouflage or have any guns or weapons on them.

This is how it is here in the land of the free and the home of the brave.

Pay attention because this is not over and there will be more to come.
 

[solvegas]

There will be those who will defend whatever the federal government does because their collectivist mindset will tell them that the federal government is doing this " in the peoples interest ". They will oppose any reform which could lessen the power of the federal government. A good example is the BLM. When established the excuse was that the western states did not have a population large enough to take care of the land within state borders themselves. That is why nearly 90 % of Nevada is owned by the federal government.  That's ridiculous. But the one thing no government, federal, state or local, will ever give up willingly is its power to control peoples fate. In my opinion the BLM is obsolete ( we have plenty of people now in Nevada ) and the BLM should be dissolved and the lands given back to their respective states or sold to the highest bidder. With a 17+ trillion debt, the federal government could use the money. This would mean Nevada, Utah, Wyoming, Idaho, California, Arizona, New Mexico, Montana and Alaska could develop their own lands as they see fit and the alienation felt by many in this part of the country towards the federal government could be attenuated. The federal government through its National Parks and Defense department holdings would still own about 50% of Nevada but the other 40% would give Nevada, with a 8.5 % unemployment rate, a big shot in the arm. There are far too many things the federal government does that simply make no sense anymore. You would think " progressives " would understand that agencies whose mission is obsolete consume money which could be used in other programs but they only have one department they wish to cut back, the Defense department. There is a lot to cut there, God knows, but even if you zero out the military ( no more Navy, Air Force, Marines, Army ) you would still not solve the budgetary problem. And of course, Russia should remind everybody that the outside world can be dangerous and we should keep some powder in our pouch. Well, gotta go to work.

[pedonbio]

Zorro, this multi-millionaire creep has been stealing from you for 20 years, and you are trying to make him sound like a hero.

And please do not conflate your myths by lumping together federal efforts to control heavily armed lunatics and thieves with an action solely by the State of Ohio against unarmed students changing classes. It's just trashy.

[Zorro]

There is another federal land grab starting up in New Mexico.

As I said, this is only the beginning and attacking me for my opinions or anyone's opinions is just wrong.

[pedonbio]

There is another federal land grab starting up in New Mexico.

As I said, this is only the beginning and attacking me for my opinions or anyone's opinions is just wrong.

I'm not attacking anyone for their opinions, and you know that. You continue to defend a man who has been stealing from you all his life. That's fine; how do you feel about burglars?

[Zorro]

http://survivaljoe.net/blog/bundy-ranch-update-patriots-win-first-battle/?utm_source=140414SJ1&utm_campaign=140414SJ1

I'm trying to figure out what burglars have to do with a corrupt federal government.

Way back in 1977 my apartment in Florida was burglarized while I was sent to Norfolk, VA.

I had notified the apartment mgr that I would be away for several weeks and to check up on my apartment now and then.

I did not tell him that my girlfriend was living there and she damn near walked in on them.

They took everything and the real kicker was that the master key to the complex was found in my bedroom.

Within a week or two after the crime the entire office staff was arrested for this and other crimes in the apartment complex.

I never did recover any of my property, but the wedding rings and my handguns were not stolen because I kept that stuff in the freezer compartment of the refrigerator.

Getting back to the situation in Nevada, I really do not care about the Bundy's financial situation.

If he is and has committed the crimes that you say then he should be arrested and tried for them and not steal his property.

Nor should he, his family as well as those hundreds/thousands of people who stood by him be threatened with being shot.

I am just glad that no lives were lost on either side.

[Palomine]

There is another federal land grab starting up in New Mexico.

As I said, this is only the beginning and attacking me for my opinions or anyone's opinions is just wrong.

No disrespect Zorro, but PB most certainly did not "attack" you or your opinion. He responded calmly to your opinion. Would anyone who didn't share your opinion be "attacking" you? No, they would not.

Choosing to accuse those who disagree with you of "attacks" only serves to make it seem as if your own position is untenable/not fact-based. Much better (IMO) to respond with logic and empirical data to support your POV, assuming that it's possible to do so. But immediately jumping to victimhood is simply an emotional response, and not productive if your goal is to have others come to share your opinion. It's like Mike Huckabee on Fox decrying boycots as "economic terrorism" ...basically painting those who disagree with a given POV as criminals simply because they express themselves by not purchasing certain goods or services. It's fantasyland nonsense IMO.

The verbal sparring that takes place in the OTF is part of its appeal. When a user can't or won't back up their views, it's not an "attack" on them for others to point that out.

[gOOber]

Crazy old coot.

[rtpoe]

OK....

This is the first I've heard of Bundy Ranch, so I have no clue what happened there. I have some familiarity with Ruby Ridge (I gather it was a really bad screw up by the FBI). Waco was bungled, but I can't come up with a way where it could have been done better.

But Kent State, since you brought it up....

Ever wonder what the Guard was doing there in the first place?

It wasn't National Guardsmen firing into a crowd of peace-loving flower children.

May 1-2, overnight: A riot started in downtown Kent. Buildings were vandalized, a bonfire was lit in a street, and the police were assaulted. The mayor declared a state of emergency, and additional police were called in from surrounding communities to help disperse the mob.

May 2: City officials and local businesses were the targets of threats, as unrest continued. Fearing that he'd be unable to control things, the mayor asked the governor to send in the National Guard. When they arrived that night, the campus ROTC Building was on fire. A mob of around 1000 students was cheering the blaze, and interfering with firemen and police.

May 3: National Guard troops attempt to break up another protest/rally, and impose a curfew. Guardsmen are met with the same general response as the police did previously.

May 4: A crowd of 2000 gather on the university Commons. The National Guard attempts to get them to disperse (tear gas was tried, but the wind was unfavorable), but the crowd refuses. Rocks and tear gas cannisters were hurled back at the Guardsmen. They were ordered to advance towards the mob....

Mobs are dangerous. You cannot reason with a mob. A mob defies reason. You can only break a mob into smaller groups until it is no longer a mob.

I do not believe for an instant that there was any premeditation on the part of the Ohio National Guard.

[Zorro]

Thank you Palomine and rtpoe for your comments and advice not to mention the full account of the Kent State event.

Calling my information "myths" without any proof felt like an attack, but let's go on and see what transpires in the next few days and weeks.

This is the first of many more acts, whether they be legal or illegal, remains to be seen and I can only hope that no lives will be lost when they will happen.

http://www.tpnn.com/2014/04/14/new-survey-do-you-stand-with-clive-bundy/

[pedonbio]

There is no "land grab". No sane person denies that Mr. Bundy (significant name?) is grazing his cattle on land which is now and since at least 1849 has been owned continuously by the federal government.

The usual series of nuts and flakes are now claiming that there is some kind of "secret" federal motive. What's funny is that the various screwballs claim different conspiracies--Oil, water, or solar ranching. A much simpler explanation is that Mr. Bundy, a multi-millionaire, simply refuses to pay what he owes.

After Reagan ordered the collection of grazing fees originally Bundy claimed that he just wanted his day in court. That, of course, resulted in the $300,000 judgment against him, so he decided to invent a convenient theory to allow himself to continue to steal federal resources.

[Zorro]

At least when I post my "myths" I provide a link to the source.

All I got so far is accusations against Bundy and an old picture of Ronald Reagan.

Oh, I almost forgot.

No response at all about how I felt about burglaries.

[Palomine]

At least when I post my "myths" I provide a link to the source.

All I got so far is accusations against Bundy and an old picture of Ronald Reagan.

Oh, I almost forgot.

No response at all about how I felt about burglaries.

While I'm personally sorry to hear that you suffered a burglary Zorro (I've had stuff stolen too when I lived in NYC in the 70s/80s and I know how it feels like a violation) I suspect you've gotten no response about that because others (myself included) don't see that personal/anecdotal experience of yours being in any way related to what's going on now re: Bundy Ranch. Conflating two disparate events doesn't create a link between them.

[Zorro]

Palomine, if you check back it was pedonbio who mentioned burglaries first and you are correct.

I did not see any connection with that subject either, but I just answered his question on how I feel about burglaries.

[pedonbio]

Sometimes the obvious needs to be explained, then.

Bundy started grazing his cattle on land which has been U.S. federal land since 1849*, and twenty years after Ronald Hussein Reagan ordered an end to unpaid grazing rights. That land is, literally, your land, my land, and Pal's land. The dirt-cheap rent (currently $1.69 per acre per year, and paid by Bundy's neighbors) for grazing rights goes into the U.S. Treasury to pay for tanks and ships and medical research. When Bundy refused to pay, the Bureau of Land Management sued him. Certain that his "day in court" would result in some sort of twisted vindication, I am sure Bundy was surprised when the jury told him to pay up.

Now, added to this, Bundy decided to show that he could be an even bigger asshole and began grazing his cattle on land protected under the Endangered Species Act, one of Richard Nixon's proudest legislative achievements. The desert tortise is an extremely rare animal, and that area of Nevada is its only home.

After losing in court, Bundy has enlarged the area he is using. Since he refuses to pay, your taxes will have to rise incrementally to cover the rent this multimillionaire refuses to pay, though the next effect in the short run will be to increase the national debt.

How do you like borrowing money to put in Bundy's pocket?

When he started grazing his cattle, Bundy knew he owed the Treasury. When he decided he would do that and would not pay, his action became fraud, which is a form of theft. When he herded his cattle onto federal land with no intention of paying (therefore, having no legal right to enter the land), his actions became, under the law of most states including Nevada, either criminal trespass or burglary.

So I guess burglary by the poor is a crime, but burglary by the rich is okay, huh?

Since you are fond of links, you may note that the agency which became the BLM was created prior to the adoption of the U.S. Constitution: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bureau_of_land_management

--------------------
*--If you, or Mr. Bundy, wish to challenge federal ownership of the land, you have to start by challenging the outcome of the Mexican War. Are you up to that? If you reverse the results of the Mexican War, then you have to challenge the ownership of the land by the original occupants.