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rtpoe

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Re: The Bundy Ranch/Ruby Ridge
« Reply #30 on: April 18, 2014, 09:49:02 PM »
Zorro, as far as I'm concerned, there's a big difference between Ignorant and Stupid. An Ignorant person is uninformed. Present them with better information, and they will at least consider it. A Stupid person refuses to acknowledge the possibility that they don't know everything. You can also be Ignorant on a certain topic, and Intelligent on others. A Stupid person tends to be Stupid on everything.

From your posts here, it's very clear that you are a Jeffersonian (as I described above). So I can guess that when you first heard about the story, it pressed all your buttons, so to speak. The Federal Government attempting to use force against a private citizen...

There's still an argument to be made on the Jeffersonian side here. If the land in question is entirely within the state of Nevada, shouldn't it make more sense for Nevada to be managing it?

You know, in my reading on the case, someone suggested an interesting possibility. Given that the sort of "free range" ranching that Mr. Bundy seems to be doing is dying out, perhaps he could petition for a special exemption on the basis of his using a "traditional/historical" style method that is worth preserving as a sort of "living history"?
rtpoe

Well, it's a marvelous night for a Moondance
With the stars up above in your eyes
A fantabulous night to make romance
'Neath the cover of October skies
And all the leaves on the trees are falling
To the sound of the breezes that blow...

Van Morrison, Moondance

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TheZookie007

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Re: The Bundy Ranch/Ruby Ridge
« Reply #31 on: April 18, 2014, 10:34:28 PM »
Zorro, as far as I'm concerned, there's a big difference between Ignorant and Stupid. An Ignorant person is uninformed. Present them with better information, and they will at least consider it. A Stupid person refuses to acknowledge the possibility that they don't know everything. You can also be Ignorant on a certain topic, and Intelligent on others. A Stupid person tends to be Stupid on everything.

Ignorance is curable via education, but as a famous comedian once said, "You can't fix stupid."

AOC, HC, TW, BO, KH: FU. FUATH. 100x.

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Zorro

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Re: The Bundy Ranch/Ruby Ridge
« Reply #32 on: April 18, 2014, 11:43:47 PM »
Zorro, as far as I'm concerned, there's a big difference between Ignorant and Stupid. An Ignorant person is uninformed. Present them with better information, and they will at least consider it. A Stupid person refuses to acknowledge the possibility that they don't know everything. You can also be Ignorant on a certain topic, and Intelligent on others. A Stupid person tends to be Stupid on everything.

From your posts here, it's very clear that you are a Jeffersonian (as I described above). So I can guess that when you first heard about the story, it pressed all your buttons, so to speak. The Federal Government attempting to use force against a private citizen...

There's still an argument to be made on the Jeffersonian side here. If the land in question is entirely within the state of Nevada, shouldn't it make more sense for Nevada to be managing it?

You know, in my reading on the case, someone suggested an interesting possibility. Given that the sort of "free range" ranching that Mr. Bundy seems to be doing is dying out, perhaps he could petition for a special exemption on the basis of his using a "traditional/historical" style method that is worth preserving as a sort of "living history"?

Thanks rtpoe with all the support Mr. Bundy acquired it appears that many others have similar feelings and in my opinion risked their lives if not taking a big chance at being arrested too.

What an odd world and time we live in today.
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Zorro

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Re: The Bundy Ranch/Ruby Ridge
« Reply #33 on: April 24, 2014, 09:55:44 AM »
http://www.teaparty.org/texas-ag-abbott-blm-come-take-40278/


As previously stated the Bundy Ranch was only the beginning.

(Breitbart) – After Breitbart Texas reported on the U.S. Bureau of Land Management’s (BLM) intent to seize 90,000 acres belonging to Texas landholders along the Texas/Oklahoma line, Texas Attorney General Greg Abbott questioned the BLM’s authority to take such action.

“I am about ready,” General Abbott told Breitbart Texas, “to go to the Red River and raise a ‘Come and Take It’ flag to tell the feds to stay out of Texas.”

Gen. Abbott sent a strongly-worded letter to BLM Director Neil Kornze, asking for answers to a series of questions related to the potential land grab.

SPECIAL: Join the Tea Party REVOLUTION! The Obama Regime must be dismantled!

“I am deeply concerned about the notion that the Bureau of Land Management believes the federal government has the authority to swoop in and take land that has been owned and cultivated by Texas landowners for generations,” General Abbott wrote. “The BLM’s newly asserted claims to land along the Red River threaten to upset long-settled private property rights and undermine fundamental principles—including the rule of law—that form the foundation of our democracy. Yet, the BLM has failed to disclose either its full intentions or the legal justification for its proposed actions. Decisions of this magnitude must not be made inside a bureaucratic black box.”

In an exclusive interview with Breitbart Texas, General Abbott said, “This is the latest line of attack by the Obama Administration where it seems like they have a complete disregard for the rule of law in this country …And now they’ve crossed the line quite literally by coming into the State of Texas and trying to claim Texas land as federal land. And, as the Attorney General of Texas I am not going to allow this.”

Abbott challenged the BLM director directly stating in his letter, “Nearly a century ago, the U.S. Supreme Court determined that the gradient line of the south bank of the Red River—subject to the doctrines of accretion and avulsion—was the boundary between Texas and Oklahoma. Oklahoma v. Texas, 260 U.S. 606 (1923). More recently, in 1994, the BLM stated that the Red River area was “[a] unique situation” and stated that ‘[t]he area itself cannot be defined until action by the U.S. Congress establishes the permanent state boundary between Oklahoma and Texas.’  Further, the BLM determined that one possible scenario was legislation that established the ‘south geologic cut bank as the boundary,’ which could have resulted ‘in up to 90,000 acres’ of newly delineated federal land.  But no such legislation was ever enacted.”

As to what kind of standoff might Texas might be facing with the BLM on this matter, Abbott said, “I think that we should be able to resolve this from a legal standpoint because, I believe, what the BLM is doing clearly violates the law. They don’t have any legal standing whatsoever to do this and that’s why I have issued this letter today.”

In the letter, Gen. Abbott details five issues for the BLM to address:

Please delineate with specificity each of the steps for the RMP/EIS process for property along the Red River.
Please describe the procedural due process the BLM will afford to Texans whose property may be claimed by the federal government.
Please confirm whether the BLM agrees that, from 1923 until the ratification of the Red River Boundary Compact, the boundary between Texas and Oklahoma was the gradient line of the south bank of the Red River.  To the extent the BLM does not agree, please provide legal analysis supporting the BLM’s position.
Please confirm whether the BLM still considers Congress’ ratification of the Red River Boundary Compact as determinative of its interest in land along the Red River? To the extent the BLM does not agree, please provide legal analysis supporting the BLM’s new position.
Please delineate with specificity the amount of Texas territory that would be impacted by the BLM’s decision to claim this private land as the property of the federal government.
“The letter today,” Abbott explained, “is the first shot in the legal process. We expect answers from them and based upon their answers we will decide what legal action to take.”

“What Barack Obama’s BLM is doing,” Abbott continued, “is so out of bounds and so offensive that we should have quick and successful legal action if they dare attempt to tread on Texas land and take it from private property owners in this state.”

As to the timeline of how this matter moves forward Abbott explained that it is hard to tell how quickly or slowly the BLM might move on this matter. “One of the problems is, we can’t tell what they’re doing other than trying to operate in very suspicious ways.  We want to make sure they are going to be open and transparent about what they are doing and that constitutional due process rights are going to be protected.”

Abbott told Breitbart Texas he wants to make sure the BLM understands that what they appear to be attempting to do is completely illegal. “This is Texas land. It belongs to Texas and the private property owners here,” Abbott firmly stated. “If we have to, we will assert quick and effective legal action to put a stop to it.”

Abbott said the next step now is for the BLM to respond to his letter and the five points detailed above. “The way these things work is,” Abbott explained, “what they say in response will lead to more questions.  I anticipate another round of questions will follow in response to their answers.”

At that point, Abbott said it should be clear that either Texas will be taking legal action to stop them or the BLM will be backing off because they have no legal basis to support “their wrongful attempt to take Texas land.”

The BLM currently maintains roughly 40,000 acres of land in Collin County around Lake Lavon.  When asked about this land, Abbott responded, “We’re looking at anything and everything BLM either has or is considering doing across the State of Texas.  Anytime we see land grabs like this by federal authorities, it raises red flags that cause us to look into the full extent of their operations.”

Abbott said this issue comes down to a fundamental principle and that is, “private property rights and the rule of law are the foundation of democracy. Repeatedly we see the Obama Administration erode that foundation of democracy. As Attorney General, I will be restoring that bedrock foundation by restoring and protecting private property rights and the rule of law in Texas.”

Abbott summarized his position thusly, “If I have to, I will make this our 31st lawsuit against the Obama Administration.”



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Zorro

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Re: The Bundy Ranch/Ruby Ridge
« Reply #34 on: April 24, 2014, 09:56:56 AM »
 :'(
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Palomine

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Re: The Bundy Ranch/Ruby Ridge
« Reply #35 on: April 24, 2014, 02:31:29 PM »
Pseudo-patriot and actual scofflaw Cliven Bundy wonders "if black people were better off as slaves."

This has been circulating widely and appears to be an accurate report of his words and views... just google if you're curious. The following excerpt of Mr. Bundy's views is sourced from the Washington Post:


Quote
“I want to tell you one more thing I know about the Negro,” he said. Mr. Bundy recalled driving past a public-housing project in North Las Vegas, “and in front of that government house the door was usually open and the older people and the kids — and there is always at least a half a dozen people sitting on the porch — they didn’t have nothing to do. They didn’t have nothing for their kids to do. They didn’t have nothing for their young girls to do.
“And because they were basically on government subsidy, so now what do they do?” he asked. “They abort their young children, they put their young men in jail, because they never learned how to pick cotton. And I’ve often wondered, are they better off as slaves, picking cotton and having a family life and doing things, or are they better off under government subsidy? They didn’t get no more freedom. They got less freedom.”

Given how myopic, racist, revisionist and just generally poorly thought-out his statement above makes him appear, it doesn't do much to bolster his views on other complex matters such as state's rights, land management or the purview of the federal government IMO.

IMO, Mr. Bundy not paying the grazing fees makes him a thief: that's evident and inarguable to anyone who's not a gleefully delusional 'small gub'mint' zealot. No different than if he refused to pay taxes he owes or held up a 7-Eleven with a shotgun. Stealing is stealing.

IMO Mr. Bundy romanticizing slavery is an even more blatant and telling reflection of his character. I'd call him a jackass, but doing so would be an undeserved insult to hard-working mules everywhere. ;)

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pedonbio

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Re: The Bundy Ranch/Ruby Ridge
« Reply #36 on: April 24, 2014, 03:47:59 PM »
The quote is accurate. Adam Nagourney, the stringer for the New York Times in Nevada was invited to a gathering of Bundy's friends by one of the local Tea Party organizers to a gathering to celebrate their "victory" over the United States and to hear Bundy bloviate for almost an hour.

Ironically, one of the few right wing nut jobs who disagreed with Bundy was Glenn Beck. When Beck interviewed him, he used the same analogy to theft/burglary that I did some posts back.
Someday, chi1dren, this entire fuck-up will be yours.

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TheZookie007

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Re: The Bundy Ranch/Ruby Ridge
« Reply #37 on: April 24, 2014, 04:19:03 PM »
The quote is accurate. Adam Nagourney, the stringer for the New York Times in Nevada was invited to a gathering of Bundy's friends by one of the local Tea Party organizers to a gathering to celebrate their "victory" over the United States and to hear Bundy bloviate for almost an hour.

Here's the video of him saying it.

It is truly amazing how authoritatively some people speak on matters of which they know absolutely nothing. Sad.
AOC, HC, TW, BO, KH: FU. FUATH. 100x.

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pedonbio

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Re: The Bundy Ranch/Ruby Ridge
« Reply #38 on: April 24, 2014, 04:28:12 PM »
I take amusement where I can find it, and Bundy provides plenty. Right now, though, I am amused at watching every Republican politician who wrapped himself around Bundy a week ago run for cover. I am waiting for a comment from Matt Shea, a state representative from Spokane who went to Nevada to support Bundy.

Misogyny is fine; jokes about rap3 are fine; waving guns is fine; threatening to kill first responders and American soldiers is fine; refusing to pay debts is fine; stealing from the public is fine; denying science is fine; but you start talking about race, and these bozos never heard of you.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2014, 04:55:30 PM by pedonbio »
Someday, chi1dren, this entire fuck-up will be yours.

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gOOber

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Re: The Bundy Ranch/Ruby Ridge
« Reply #39 on: April 24, 2014, 04:54:15 PM »
I take amusement where I can find it, and Bundy provides plenty. Right now, though, I am amused at watching every Republican politician who wrapped himself around Bundy a week ago run for cover.

Misogyny is fine; jokes about rap3 are fine; waving guns is fine; threatening to kill first responders and American soldiers is fine; refusing to pay debts is fine; stealing from the public is fine; denying science is fine; but you start talking about race, and these bozos never heard of you.
Back in my parents and grandparents time, they had to watch their tongue about sex but racial humor was AOK.
....rejoicing in the fullness thereof....

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pedonbio

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Re: The Bundy Ranch/Ruby Ridge
« Reply #40 on: April 24, 2014, 05:09:29 PM »
Back in my parents and grandparents time, they had to watch their tongue about sex but racial humor was AOK.

Yep. It was the same on the West Coast, except the targets were Asian.
Someday, chi1dren, this entire fuck-up will be yours.

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rtpoe

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Re: The Bundy Ranch/Ruby Ridge
« Reply #41 on: April 24, 2014, 08:17:07 PM »
Methinks the good Attorney General doth protest too much.

If you maintain that the BLM is trying to obtain managerial control of privately owned land, then as an attorney you should be fully capable of using rational, legal arguments. You may neither like nor agree with President Obama, but have some respect for the office.

(Oh, of course. It's a mid-term election year, and you need to crank up the invective....and the BLM is an easy target these days)

A cursory reading of one article on the matter tells me that the border between Texas and Oklahoma has been a matter of long dispute. Sure, on a map it's the Red River. But on the ground, is it the center of the river? If one of the shores, which one? And what happens when the river shifts its course? I gather, from my very limited reading, that the state line actually has to do with where the vegetation on the south bank of the river begins... Not knowing exactly where the 90,000 acres lie, I cannot tell if border shifting basic confusion is involved.

But that's something that should be able to be settled in a civil manner, without basically inciting people to riot.

Oh, and Attorney General Abbott, if you are so concerned about private property, perhaps you should review your own state's "use" of eminent domain....
rtpoe

Well, it's a marvelous night for a Moondance
With the stars up above in your eyes
A fantabulous night to make romance
'Neath the cover of October skies
And all the leaves on the trees are falling
To the sound of the breezes that blow...

Van Morrison, Moondance

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gOOber

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Re: The Bundy Ranch/Ruby Ridge
« Reply #42 on: April 25, 2014, 01:49:22 PM »
"I have a dream. A dream where a white man is able to secure federal land without paying any money for it and fighting the government. Where a white man can insult all black men with impunity"
« Last Edit: April 25, 2014, 01:51:51 PM by gOOber »
....rejoicing in the fullness thereof....

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rtpoe

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Re: The Bundy Ranch/Ruby Ridge
« Reply #43 on: April 25, 2014, 11:47:12 PM »
You know, I'm rather sure that this discussion didn't turn out quite the way Zorro thought it would have when he started the thread.

But I want to tip my hat to him, since it's led me to do a little reading and thinking on the Bureau of Land Management. Something I'd have never done otherwise. Thank you, sir.

Now it did turn out that Mr. Bundy is a shmuck and is blatantly wrong in his dispute with the BLM, but the case in Texas can be far more interesting. If only Attorney General (and gubernatorial candidate) Abbott could have avoided the invective about the "Obama regime"... It may actually be that the ranchers are in the right regarding the BLM's reclassification of the 120 square miles or so of land under dispute; in any case it seems like the border issues between Texas and Oklahoma can be a fascinating source of discussions over the "border issues" between state and federal governments. But when you start waving battle flags around, I find it very hard to listen to what you are saying.
rtpoe

Well, it's a marvelous night for a Moondance
With the stars up above in your eyes
A fantabulous night to make romance
'Neath the cover of October skies
And all the leaves on the trees are falling
To the sound of the breezes that blow...

Van Morrison, Moondance

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CarlTL

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Re: The Bundy Ranch/Ruby Ridge
« Reply #44 on: April 26, 2014, 12:03:07 PM »
"I have a dream. A dream where a white man is able to secure federal land without paying any money for it and fighting the government. Where a white man can insult all black men with impunity"

Why does he have an American flag? He only recognizes the state of Nevada's authority.