[Chronicler]

Let me just say that the reason you do not like PhotoClubs is the reason I have never had a subscription to any service like that. I do not believe in supporting something that devalues the women who fill the demand for their own product while some greaseball sits back and watches the cash roll in and puts women in the kind of position where they think they need to rely on those 'private sessions'. NOPE. I'll just use my imagination if it comes to that. I used to be a driver for an escort service, and I know exactly what you are talking about. I didn't do it for very long, for the same reason I feel the way I do about these kind of services. The models have been paid a flat fee, so I'll not support the service, hoping that another alternative surfaces, knowing that the models themselves are none the worse for my lack of participation. The demand is not going anywhere. It just depends on how that demand is filled. Myself, I'm a sucker for big boobs and a cute smile, but not to the point that I'd support something like that. I think that's the difference in whether a woman is 'objectified' or whether she is simply revered for her beauty.

I was also going to recommend a similar thing to what ninjrk had said. What about establishing a conglomerate LLC yourselves or something along those lines?
It's a terrible thing that some of them have given those people exclusive control over so much material. Even though I do not like the idea of paying mp3.com a monthly promotion fee, on top of the 50% they get from each mp3 sale, I am still able to revoke their right to distribute the songs at any moment.

I am in a similar situation Melonie, and I admire your resolution to remain independent. That shows that you value yourself and that you are smart, and tough. The music industry is similar on several points. I am an indie, and I am not even really interested in getting 'signed' because I know my rights, I know the laws, and I know what a crappy deal you get when you get signed unless you go platinum, and even then. Of course this is music, but it is similar.

I would think some type of business run by models, for models is the ultimate way to go if everyone can get together on an agreement of sorts. Tough situation. Would a consignment agreement at a small local place be enough to get around that "online-only" clause? Even if you only sold a small number of videos this way so as not to minimize profits I wonder if it would be enough, or if that would just place this burden on the shop owner?

I also wonder if you were able to register an LLC or something of the like if that might not also work in your favor in terms of the brick & mortar aspect of this. I can't see MasterCard getting into zoning issues, so it might just be that simple, at least in this regard, but I am not sure, just thinking out loud.  

[melonie_charm]

To clarify the brick and mortar issue, at least in regard to the way commercial banks in my area view it, if a business has a building/storefront/physical facility which is open to the general public this is proof to the bankers not only that a "serious" business exists but that the business owner has made a significant investment in his business and is committed to it's continuing profitability.  This also provides the bankers with an "asset" that they can potentially seize if the business should make questionable charges on customers' credit cards to avoid the bank taking a loss on credit card charges which the business collected from customers under false pretenses and which the bank must later refund.  Yes I agree that where logic is concerned there should be many ways around this given my website's 8 successful years of operation with very few refunds and next to no chargebacks, however these people follow procedures and guidelines to the letter.  Procedure says you must have a dedicated physical retail business facility, and "home based", "web based" businesses do not meet this requirement.  This is even more the case when the business in question falls into the category of being a Sexually Oriented Business, which lumps my website into the same group as hard XXX businesses, adult bookstores, massage parlors etc.  Yet these businesses can obtain merchant accounts if they have a brick and mortar business establishment open to the public, and I can't !

Yes, there are still ways for me to sell website memberships and merchandise over the net using credit card processing services, but these are now full of hassles and restrictions.  This is not to mention being gouged for an exorbitant annual fee plus a 15-20% cut of every transaction to the processing services, plus having the processing service hold back another 10% of my transactions for 6 months (with the service earning  interest on my money in the meantime) as insurance against refund losses.  Brick and mortar businesses with their own "merchant accounts" don't have to pay out 1/3 as much in the way of transaction fees to commercial banks as we have to pay out to these processing services.

I'm just venting that Visa and MasterCard, in cahoots with these processing services, are using the Patriot Act requirements to effectively and actively discourage small independent adult businesses as well as to price gouge us unmercifully.  We really can't pass all of these extra costs on to our members and customers when the large supersites don't incur these same costs and can therefore undersell us badly.  

Memories pop into my head of the famous trial of Preston Tucker ... "when big business squashes the little guy, it undermines everything we work for, everything this country stands for" ...

[ggk]

 

Quote:
 I am in a similar situation Melonie, and I admire your resolution to remain independent. That shows that you value yourself and that you are smart, and tough. The music industry is similar on several points. I am an indie, and I am not even really interested in getting 'signed' because I know my rights, I know the laws, and I know what a crappy deal you get when you get signed unless you go platinum, and even then. Of course this is music, but it is similar.

I think the point of going with Scoreland, Photoclubs, or Danni would be to reach an audience that you don't have the power to get yourself. Just like signing with a major label.  They put their marketing muscle behind you and even if you don't make the majority of the record sales, in most cases you make a lot more money than you can as an indie, as well as gaining name recognition. Try publishing your own magazine and getting it in stores, or try building a website that has the popularity of Danni's harddrive. I have heard Melonie and Christine talk about how hard it is to get membership up as Indies. I don't know how you can say the big media devalues the entertainers, whether it be Rock Stars or Boob Stars. Most of the Big Bust Stars, I learned of because of the places you say devalues them.  

 

[melonie_charm]

Well, I won't speak for ScoreLand other than to note that Chloe's World, Sarenna's World etc. are the "official" websites for these models, implying that any other model sites which ScoreLand might choose to add in the future would also need to be that model's "official" site (i.e. shut down all independent operations).  From the audience outreach standpoint, I have several photo shoots and video clips posted at ScoreLand right now as a result of modeling and video work that I have done with SCORE magazine (fantastic people btw!).

In regards to Danni's and PhotoClubs, as I said before, under todays business conditions appearing on these websites basically boils down to 2-3 days of modeling work for a set fee once or twice a year whether that modeling work is done directly for website photographers or through independent photographers.  The possible audience outreach implications which you assume will be significant are doubtful anyhow since there are now just SO many girls at both of these sites.  When I was a PhotoClubs model under the old arrangement I actually got very little additional business from my PhotoClubs exposure. I got lots of extra attention, but this did not translate into extra business or extra income, only extra work answering fan e-mails and BBS posts!

Today PhotoClubs appears to operate on a two tier system, with certain girls (the ones with the biggest tits of course) promoted on the top line and the remaining 80% of models relegated to the bottom of the page.  This is smart business for PhotoClubs, but unless a girl invests in new implants that truly rival Chelsea or Maxi or B.B., you're talking about probably less than $1000 in modeling fees once or twice a year as the total potential income from PhotoClubs.  This of course compares to earning more than that in a couple of nights of doing live club appearances, or earning more than that in a couple of hours of "private sessions" with fans in hotel rooms.

My point here is of course that the big multi-girl websites may be raking in membership money, but in terms of sharing that money, their models receive an even smaller "cut" via modeling fees than we independents do using processing services at our own websites.  Of course, the girls that do the modeling thing once or twice a year don't have any obligations to be involved with their "corporate" websites, such that they don't have to "waste time" answering fan e-mails, posting on BBS's or otherwise interacting with their internet fans.  I personally consider this interaction with internet fans to be very important, but obviously the members of these "corporate" multi-girl websites do not, and apparrently neither do the majority of models (who will interact on stage in a club in exchange for tips and a hefty feature fee, or who will interact in hotel rooms at $750+ per hour).  In fairness, Maxi is a glowing exception to this trend, and she absolutely works her butt off on the road as well as on the net.

However, my view of the big boobs industry is obviously a bit outdated, stemming from the mid-90's when exotic dancing and operating a website for fans meant much more than just cold hard cash.  This is the root of my venting, with the latest credit card developments being just one more step in the "wrong" direction IMHO.

[ggk]

I agree with a lot of what you are saying.  I am trying to understand why you in particular would shoot for Score if the exposure does not help you.  Or why you would have ever had as site at photoclubs if you didn't get paid, or get exposure? You have now obviously figured out it isn't worth it financially to do these things anymore, right?

I don't believe Sarennasworld is Sarenna's official website. Also Chloesworld is not her official website from what I have read on boards.  I think an official website, and a photo site like these are 2 distinct experiences and both have value. I guess this is obvious since both are able to exist.

It seems that exposure is the name of the game when it comes to entertainment. Christine, Vixen, Yourself and others come to these sites for exposure, and because you can reach more people than at your own websites, right? Otherwise you could post your messages at your site. I am glad you come, here, or I may have missed the things you and other models have to say. I know you don't like the fact that the girls are doing private shows, since you don't find them appealing.  But isn't the private show just a couch dance, where you don't have to pay the house a big piece of the action?  No disrespect intended, but I always come away from these discussions with more info than I started with.
 

[melonie_charm]

Quote:
I agree with a lot of what you are saying.  I am trying to understand why you in particular would shoot for Score if the exposure does not help you.  Or why you would have ever had as site at photoclubs if you didn't get paid, or get exposure? You have now obviously figured out it isn't worth it financially to do these things anymore, right?

Posing for SCORE was based on my personal fullfillment of a dream (growing to 50").  Also SCORE is run by great people who treat their models right.  And SCORE fans are some of the most dedicated big boob fans around, which did indeed allow me to meet new people at my website and at my IFriends webcam.  However, from a purely income oriented standpoint, dedicating three days of my time to a SCORE photo/video shoot plus travel paid way less than working live in any club I could think of for the same amount of time.  Plus no single model is likely to be given the opportunity to pose for SCORE again more often than once or twice a year, which does NOT pay the bills.

Quote:
I don't believe Sarennasworld is Sarenna's official website. Also Chloesworld is not her official website from what I have read on boards.  I think an official website, and a photo site like these are 2 distinct experiences and both have value. I guess this is obvious since both are able to exist.

This was NOT my impression, but I could be wrong.  At any rate, to my knowledge neither Chloe or Sarenna are actively operating independent websites themselves which directly compete with their sites hosted by ScoreLand.



It seems that exposure is the name of the game when it comes to entertainment. Christine, Vixen, Yourself and others come to these sites for exposure, and because you can reach more people than at your own websites, right? Otherwise you could post your messages at your site. I am glad you come, here, or I may have missed the things you and other models have to say. I know you don't like the fact that the girls are doing private shows, since you don't find them appealing.  But isn't the private show just a couch dance, where you don't have to pay the house a big piece of the action?  No disrespect intended, but I always come away from these discussions with more info than I started with.


 
I would respectfully disagree with your conclusion.  I would wager that Vixen, Christine, Keisha and myself spend time interacting with BEA members here on this BBS because A. we enjoy doing so (little secret - we enjoy the "reactions" we cause in male BEA members), B. it's a place for all of us to share and discuss opinions about growing boobs and the big boobs business on an equal footing (versus my own website's BBS for example which is focused only on me most of the time), and C. because it's the ONLY place where you will find certain questions asked and answered.  Yes it's possible that we can reach more people through the BEA site than we might otherwise would if none of us posted here, but trust me that in the BEA's case in particular that does NOT translate into hugely significant extra earnings.  If it did, Vixen would not have had to save up her live club earnings to pay off the loan on her implants!  Put simply, there are some girls that expect cash up front in order to pay attention to you, and we are NOT among those girls!

[ggk]

 

Quote:
This was NOT my impression, but I could be wrong. At any rate, to my knowledge neither Chloe or Sarenna are actively operating independent websites themselves which directly compete with their sites hosted by ScoreLand.
 

Chloe's Official website      Sarenna's official website
http://www.chloevevrier.com  http://www.sweetsamples.com
I am excited that I could actually inform you on something that you didn't know about this business.


I do think you enjoy having these discussions as do we. However, I bet this place translated to more business for Vixen, and Keisha due to the fact that it is exposure for them to be here. I am just guessing.  I would not be able to guess how much, or whether it is enough to pay for implants, but do believe it has helped all the models that post here.


 

[ninjrk]

Quote:
 

Quote:
This was NOT my impression, but I could be wrong. At any rate, to my knowledge neither Chloe or Sarenna are actively operating independent websites themselves which directly compete with their sites hosted by ScoreLand.
 

Chloe's Official website      Sarenna's official website
http://www.chloevevrier.com  http://www.sweetsamples.com
I am excited that I could actually inform you on something that you didn't know about this business.
 

My understanding from what both of them have posted is that they are given a bit more slack than most models, since Sarenna Lee and Chloe Vevrier are pretty much synonomous with SCORE.  Both of them post new material only to their new official sites, with new additions to the -world sites being from SCORE magazine photoshoots only.

It makes sense from SCORE's point of view as I'm sure that they will continue to reap plenty of money simply rotating their old photosets and the models get to operate independently. Outside of those two, Linsey, and maybe Chelsea Charms I would doubt that any other models would get to have an official website and then a XXXworld one.  It would dilute out the value of the -world websites too much

Now, what would be interesting is if an established website like Score or Danni branched out into hosting individual model sites that were processed through their main accounts.  For instance, a sub-page from Danni to Melonie Charm's page, where you sign up for Melonie's content only.  Maybe that is the way that the industry will go?

Matt  

[ggk]

 

Quote:
  Now, what would be interesting is if an established website like Score or Danni branched out into hosting individual model sites that were processed through their main accounts. For instance, a sub-page from Danni to Melonie Charm's page, where you sign up for Melonie's content only. Maybe that is the way that the industry will go?

I believe what you are describing is what the yournamehereworld sites and photoclubs sites are.  Accounts that you can sign up for individual model sites only.  I don't believe Danni would break her membership up that way, since she has already one of the most successful sites ever.

Ninjrk, are you part of the Score company, or are you guessing what they allow or disallow? Don't you think the other models would think it unfair to allow Sarenna and Chloe to do things they can't?

[Chronicler]

Not to derail the thread, but essentially I'm not in this for an ego trip. I'm in this because I want to make powerful music. I might get better promotion services with a major label, but the industry is so corrupt that the company is not promoting me for me AT ALL, they are promoting me so they can use my ability to make them rich.

Standard record contracts involve the musician signing away their rights to the product i.e.; the record itself. You get an 'advance' to pay for the cost of recording, and you have to pay it back out of your paltry royalites that you must accept as a part of the contract. Usually, just recording the album is around $250k, and those prices are fixed because the studio is in league with the RIAA lackeys, a powerful lobby on Capitol Hill I might add. So while the record company is paying you a lump sum of money as your advance, you have to use it to pay back the recording studio and it always falls short of the actual cost, so your royalties from initial records sales always go toward the outstanding principle, and this means that you often need to sell hundreds of thousands of copies just to get your head above water. So, having no rights over the recording itself, you have to rely on Live shows and merchandising to make any money for yourself, which the record company will help you implement for a cut.

Also, often artists are signed to a 7 album deal, and if you cannot produce based on the same terms mentioned above, you find yourself in a breach of contract, and ultimately end up back where you started, with nothing more but name recognition. This is why it is only a select few only that ever find themselves able to make a full career out of music.

Basically, the whole system is setup to benefit only the record company. This is why i would much rather use a service like mp3.com, because it is a much more open ended agreement, even though it still pales in comparison to the money I could make if I had a direct deal with a distributor. I could take that money and promote myself with it. The whole thing is a trap designed to get you to think that they can do something for you that you cannot so that they can bleed you dry.
---------------------------
Modeling for a one time fee is just as bad, because as Melonie pointed out, anything you do outside of that is in direct competition with the service that paid you for EXCLUSIVE rights to material/product. The point is, more and more businesses are operating like that, so in short, big companies are making it difficult for the actual talent to maintain their own rights simply by equating a cost with everything around that. IT'S BULLSH&T!

[spid]

Free, no MC/Visa fee... I know another girl that uses it. Not sure how long it will be around since GloBill was shut down but for now it's here.. many adult sites are using it now after the Globill problem.
http://probilling.com  

[bewbienewbie]

 Don't listen to there shit about it being a pro-america act, it's just a law people accepted because they thought it was to "stop terrorists". Fucking bush is taking advantage of us to break privacy laws.

[Chronicler]

You may not know how right you are...

http://www.iuma.com/bb/Forum15/HTML/004501-27.html

Dedicated to Massauu and the Hopi

----------===

from the trade center to the pentagon
you put a face on fear just to lead us on
a propaganda war for the computer age
just like FDR playing silent sage
this ain't about terror, but maybe smack
this IS all about the knife in my back
we kill each other for nickels and dimes
'cause we've turned our back on a simple way of life
----------------------------------
is the paid life dull?
did the bulb burn out?
do you waste your life
in fear and doubt?
TURN AROUND
get up off your ass
i'll give you something
to fight for
----------------------------------
take a look and see what you've made
a world run by machines, a world full of hate
there's a bright spot shining in the desert sky
is it Massauu's light, or a nuclear lie?
----------------------------------
did the heat die down?
did your dawn burn red?
did your soul fly away
and leave you for dead?
was it you; was it me?
was it just a bad dream?
is it over yet?
is it safe to scream?
did you think too hard?
did you drink too much?
did you leave anything
for the rest of us?
TURN AROUND
see the pact you made
in the dirt; in the dust
in the rust
----------------------------------
----
RUST
----
----------------------------------
patiently waiting for the red sun
I have seen your death and it's an ugly one
I might have felt bad back in '82
but that's before I had to live with you
----------------------------------
did you work too hard?
did your [censored] drop out?
did the board of directors
sell you out?
did the heat die down?
did your dawn burn red?
did your heart choke up
and die in your head?

does it burn inside
when you look in my face?
are you pissed off 'cause
you don't own the place?
this nightmare was once
the American Dream
so I'll die out here
in the black and the green

you can't feel this
you can't stop this
you can't kill this
you can't burn this

©2003 NAKED FORCE™ - All Rights Reserved

 

[Prophet_Tenebrae]

I've said it before and I'll say it again - get a hold on your conservatives and Christians or you're all back in the Empire!

[jaytas]

 

Quote:
 (little secret - we enjoy the "reactions" we cause in  male BEA members ),  

And I for one would like to say that I appreciate this and stand assured the you girls do get a reaction from this male member and his member as well.  

Not to speak of the stimulating discussions as well.