[DJPFC]

Well said.  I have had the good fortune to be friends with several dancers, a couple of first tier features and rather more second tier features and house girls.  I think people fixate on the "I made 2K one night" and think that's normal.  It isn't.  Most features don't get travel covered, lodging, etc.  That's out of pocket.  They have to pay their manager, pay the DJ, those awesome guys in security (ahem), and so forth.  I'm not saying that they're anywhere close to minimum wage but in it's heyday there were maybe 10 models who cleared 6 figures in a year, gross.  Those that did were on tour for over 40 weeks a year. 

As to the rest of her essay; she was apparently miserable, found God which apparently gave her a sense of self worth again, and is lashing out at what hurt her.  Some porn stars can handle the job, an awful lot get crushed by it.  The nature of the beast I guess.

Yeah, I wasn't even talking about gals who dance, I was just referring to the ones who are regular models with their own websites. 

[Tomoe_Gozen]

"...Some guys can be very obsessive about porn and that definitely isn't healthy. But that kind of addictive behavior is only common among a small minority of porn consumers. Every man consumes porn and for the vast majority of us it's a let's download some shit for free, shoot a load and be done with it for the day kind of a thing that we spend  maybe 15 minutes on. It's as mundane as taking your dump of the day and there's not always a willing lady around to schlob your knob... Porn is not meant to be meaningful or intimate, it's no substitute for a woman but simply a tool to take care of our sex drive when there's no opportunity to do it with a woman... Addictive behavior is not exclusive to porn. Naturally those at the receiving end (like Erica) see a lot more of those addicts, the same as a black jack dealer sees more gambling addicts than your average Joe Shmoe..."

Ha-ha-ha-ha!  Oh Goddess!  I'm dying of laughter here!  Ha-ha-ha-ha!  Please let them rest, those cliches are so tired!  Schlob your Knob?  Joe Schmoe?  You even misspelled it!  How old are you, kid?  Do you really buy into the line that porn is addictive as class A narcotics? Do you honestly find the porn you "consume" to be "mundane as taking your dump of the day" - lacking in meaning or intimacy?  If so, I'm glad I'm not your girlfriend.

Personally, I don't care for the religious flavored bullshit coming out of this girl either.  Sex work has it's own dangers, true, but if you're an adult you get to make your own choices... and then live with the consequences. You stay and make your money - or not - but don't whine like a little girl on your way out.  I know for a fact that sex work / modeling can be a very affirming and positively transformative experience in a young woman's life provided she has the necessary mental fortitude. The problem here isn't one of too many "addicts" hanging around this girl - it's one of a girl who cannot (for one reason or another) deal with the mental rigors of her job anymore. She obviously feels lost, empty, and soulless.  Unlike this Erica seems to have expected (and you apparently believe) this sort of job is NOT easy. There are good reasons why so many women in these industries either get out, burn out, or wind up batshit crazy - but those reasons have almost nothing to do with the men involved.  They have to do with our society's sex negative views and how these women wind up viewing *themselves*.

Speaking of sex negativity! Back to the funny part of your post - Ha-ha-ha!  How exactly does one "schlob"?  I've always wondered that...

Tomoe "porn is meaningful self intimacy" Gozen

[Tomoe_Gozen]

I would argue that there's also no blue collar/white collar job that is quite as soul-destroying as a woman having to do sexual favors for strangers for money.

I actually disagree with you there.  I would rate almost every minimum wage job I've ever held as being more soul-destroying than sex work.  What winds up driving women nuts in sex work isn't the men - it isn't the sex - it's sex negativity.

If you want to focus solely on the financial aspect of this, then you are correct, but the other aspects of it cannot be realistically ignored in actual reality.  Those jobs may pay well financially, but they also exact a serious price in other areas.  And the women who tend to do those jobs are able to do them for a reason and it usually has something to do with something pretty serious happening at some point in their younger lives.  

No, here I must point out that correlation is not causation.  Yes, a lot of women who do sex work for extended periods of time are also women who have experienced significant trauma of one kind or another in their young lives.  This isn't because the abuse harmed them and "drove them to a place where they had no choice... blah, blah, bullshit..." - it's because of compartmentalization.  Victims of abuse (also soldiers, police, doctors, etc.) often have to learn to keep emotional spaces separate - to compartmentalize.  This same compartmentalization comes in handy as sex worker when you are essentially living two lives.

[DJPFC]

I actually disagree with you there.  I would rate almost every minimum wage job I've ever held as being more soul-destroying than sex work.  What winds up driving women nuts in sex work isn't the men - it isn't the sex - it's sex negativity.

No, here I must point out that correlation is not causation.  Yes, a lot of women who do sex work for extended periods of time are also women who have experienced significant trauma of one kind or another in their young lives.  This isn't because the abuse harmed them and "drove them to a place where they had no choice... blah, blah, bullshit..." - it's because of compartmentalization.  Victims of abuse (also soldiers, police, doctors, etc.) often have to learn to keep emotional spaces separate - to compartmentalize.  This same compartmentalization comes in handy as sex worker when you are essentially living two lives.

No offense, but unless you have ever been a woman who has had to give blow jobs for money, I don't really think you're qualified to make the first statement.  In fact, most women I know would be patently offended and insulted by your assertion.  Your burger flipping job at McDonald's is more demeaning than a woman blowing strangers for money so she can make a living?  I wouldn't go around making that kind of statement to any of your female friends if I were you.

As for your second statement... what difference does it make if it's causation or correlation or compartmentalization?  It's still giving blow jobs for money.  I never said anyone was "driven" to do anything.  It's the serious abuse that allows them to do it at all and that abuse also allows and encourages other serious emotional and mental deficiencies.  That was my point.  

[3deroticer]

Interesting post Tomoe!

I was watching a movie and I can't tell you which one it is, but I can tell you the conversation that was script. It went something like this the
guy: Can you turn over so I can do it doggy style so I am not crushing the baby?
girl: Eww No! I am not a dog!
guy: I didn't imply that your a dog, it's just the name of the pose!

I can't tell you how many woman talk about the move being offensive to them yet it is one of the most natural position for all of *god* creation. But somehow it got slip in for some people as being negative. Attaching shame to the most natural thing that humans do on earth. Taking picture of a woman nude have made it into that category of being creepy, yet you can take tons of picture of everything else about them. We made great stride in tolerance for race, sexual orientation, but still not able to shed our nation prudish ways.

We could have a better chance to get a better leader in govt if we could get past it.

[Tomoe_Gozen]

No offense, but unless you have ever been a woman who has had to give blow jobs for money, I don't really think you're qualified to make the first statement.  In fact, most women I know would be patently offended and insulted by your assertion.  Your burger flipping job at McDonald's is more demeaning than a woman blowing strangers for money so she can make a living?  I wouldn't go around making that kind of statement to any of your female friends if I were you.

As for your second statement... what difference does it make if it's causation or correlation or compartmentalization?  It's still giving blow jobs for money.  I never said anyone was "driven" to do anything.  It's the serious abuse that allows them to do it at all and that abuse also allows and encourages other serious emotional and mental deficiencies.  That was my point.  

Excellent, then we both agree that I am qualified to make the first statement.  What's with your total dickish, judgmental attitude toward women giving blowjobs for money?  I did sex work for three years without any ill side effects - bought a house, invested in my future, then got out. It's hard to do sex work very long because of the hordes of sex-negative people like you who believe that only crazy, broken, or abused women would ever do such a thing.    News flash: most prostitutes are pretty mundane - people like your neighbors, your sister, your college friends, your yoga instructor - not some exotically-pitiable female victim-thing.

"It's the serious abuse that allows them to do it at all and that abuse also allows and encourages other serious emotional and mental deficiencies." my ass    
It's the *money* that allows **31** to continue - and the secret money + judgement from mainstream society that harms girls. I'm making the point that plenty of women do sex work short term who were either not abused or else have dealt with their own baggage.  Starting to blame sex work, blame men, or blame sex with men for your own mental crap is a red flag that it's time to get out of the business - and most women do.  My point is that you never hear from those women - they just fade away.  You only hear from or about the nutjobs who self-destruct on the way down.

Tomoe "rather suck dick in heaven than flip burgers in hell" Gozen

[MunchWolf]

no ill side effects??  you bought that house in Tacoma ..... that's pretty ill ....

-Munch "had to say something" Wolf

[Tomoe_Gozen]

no ill side effects??  you bought that house in Tacoma ..... that's pretty ill ....

-Munch "had to say something" Wolf

Araugh!!!  I know, right?
I bought that *$#! house in Tacoma!  How was I to know that the economy was about to bottom out?!  The cute boy said "I want babies".... and the bank man said "investment in real estate has always been a sure thing!"... so I ignored my gut.  I took the $$K and put it into a house, instead of Googles IPO, like I'd been considering...
Araugh!!...

Tomoe "No Regrets, right? (araugh!)" Gozen

`

[Pipatel]

Ha-ha-ha-ha!  Oh Goddess!  I'm dying of laughter here!  Ha-ha-ha-ha!  Please let them rest, those cliches are so tired!  Schlob your Knob?  Joe Schmoe?  You even misspelled it!  How old are you, kid?  

Well, since you did us the favor of acting like a self-important jack-ass in this thread, I actually took the time to google if I spelled these yiddish terms correctly. Looks like they are spelled correctly. I'm not a native English speaker by the way and hence probably not as proficient in lingo and slang as such an esteemed scholar of the Shakespearian language like yourself. I suggest you either try your grammar nazi antics on someone else, or at least do some fact-checking before you embarrass yourself any further. You could of course just discuss the issue at hand instead of going personal. That's a common tactic reserved for people who can't formulate a real argument.

Just a friendly suggestion, Mr keyboard warrior.

[gonZo]

Pip, you may write fairly well in english, but you don't seem to be able to fully comprehend what you've read. You can infer from her remarks that Tomoe_Gozen is a woman. That's the point of her writing in this thread: you guys are making questionable assumptions about female motivations, and she's providing a first-person viewpoint to contradict you.

[Pipatel]

Pip, you may write fairly well in english, but you don't seem to be able to fully comprehend what you've read. You can infer from her remarks that Tomoe_Gozen is a woman. That's the point of her writing in this thread: you guys are making questionable assumptions about female motivations, and she's providing a first-person viewpoint to contradict you.

I understand fairly well and you should notice that this person didn't show up in the thread until our own discussion "among the guys" was already done. Her very first remarks on the issue were not on the issue at all but rather a failed ad personam attack against my perceived bad spelling. My actual viewpoint regarding Erica's remarks is, as you'll notice by reading my previous postings, not much different from hers. Both of uscriticized DJPFC's white knight attitude towards sex workers and highlighted the importance of personal responsibility. As she apparently confused my comment about "some guys" (porn obsession) with "all guys" she is probably the one having a problem of reading and comprehending, not me. I'm sorry but I have a hard time taking someone serious who tries (and fails) to treat me like a twelve year old. She knows nothing of me and I know nothing of her.

Frankly I don't care if I'm talking to men or women here and agree with you that a woman who has (in addition) done sex work, might provide valuable first-hand experience. But there's a way to debate as an adult and a way to do it as a jackass. Women can be jackasses, too.

[DJPFC]

I wasn't being "white knight" to anyone... just stating a well-known fact that most people (not just women... men, too) who do sex work do so because they have had some serious abuse in their past that causes a significant disconnect that allows them to do such work in the first place.  That is what Erica was saying in her farewell letter and I was saying I agree with her, because I have seen it first hand with others.

If Tomoe wants to insist that it's wonderful work and that regular jobs are far worse, and boast about how fantastic it was while she was doing it and how many houses it allowed her to buy, that's certainly her right and her perspective and it's certainly valid in that regard, but I know for sure that most women would heartily disagree with her to the point of being offended by her assertion.  And it also doesn't change the inscrutable fact above, i.e. that most people who do sex work have been abused in their pasts and those who grow up having normal, well-adjusted childhoods generally do not do sex work.

[TeamCanada]

Ugh... I very much hate to get involved in debates like this, but I'm finding some of the claims being made here to be just plain staggering.

I would rate almost every minimum wage job I've ever held as being more soul-destroying than sex work.

While I agree that many minimum wage jobs aren't nessarily the most dignified of pursuits, if you genuinely believe what you wrote there, I actually feel bad for you. And most people will have 100x more respect for someone who gets down in the trenches and works for what they have as opposed to those who choose to do otherwise... And a lot of what you're saying indicates to me you're in the latter category.

News flash: most prostitutes are pretty mundane - people like your neighbors, your sister, your college friends, your yoga instructor - not some exotically-pitiable female victim-thing.

I appreciate that you've had experience in the field, and if you feel that your experience was a positive one that ended amicably, then congratulations. However, unlike what you claim, you're in a very small minority of people, so if that was indeed your experience, you either live in a bubble, or are completely dilusional. Through my work, I have regular interactions with sex trade workers in all sorts of settings, and I'm sorry, but the notion that most of them conduct their business, then head back to suburban life on lollipop lane simply isn't true. Period. I do agree that there are those out there who do, but even in those cases, those people are in one way or another, simply a different breed. And they are most definitely not my neighbor, my sister, my college friends, or my yoga instructor. But I suppose everyone has their own view on what normal is.

[Geeve]

Confused on the sex work tangent because how does that relate to what Erica said, she never did sex work I thought.  How is being a nude model as "soul draining" or whatever metaphor she implies, she never went that far, she might have seen and known people that have, but still don't get how it relates to her again.

[DJPFC]

The best thing to do is simply read what Erica wrote, which is posted to this thread.  Too many people have put words in her mouth and innuendo in her intentions, so it's best just to read it for yourself and make your own determinations.  I think what she is saying is pretty clear.

We did get off-topic with the sex worker thing, but her overall point was that the industry as a whole can often be rather exploitative, and that many times people start with good intentions or just to pay a few bills and it spirals out of control, and she no longer wanted to be a part of that kind of world.  I think that's pretty much all that needs to be said.