[Hugeboobfan]

Quote:
solvegas said:
I'm going to jump in here knowing full well that my stance will be taken wrong or incorrectly. The reason why the founding fathers inserted the 2nd amendment wasn't just so that people could go hunting or shoot for entertainment or anything like that. Thomas Jefferson himself said it was to ensure neither the federal, state or local goverment would have a monopoly of force. The experience they gained from the revolutionary war made them appreciate the fact that a well armed populace was able to get rid of the oppresive yoke of colonial rule. The british did not leave just because we asked them. And the founding fathers did not want a future American goverment to be able to tyranize the citizenry on a future date. Also, they had a tremendous distrust of a standing profesional army and so they also wanted able  bodied citizens to come to the common defense.

I agree.  We should eliminate the armed forces.

[solvegas]

I type too slow so I had to do this before I ran out of time. Anyways, perhaps some of you have heard of Israel or Switzerland. In those countries, all able bodied males are required to keep in their homes firearms which make Dirty Harry's .44 magnum look like a toy. In Switzerland it's a H&K 3 with 300 rounds. Yet there is no mayhem like in Mexico which severely restricts weapons to its citizens. A firearm is a tool and it can be misused but no weapon has ever kill anybody on its own cognisance. It requires a person to do it. A firearm needs 4 things to useful. One is ammunition - no bullets, no fun. Two, the action must work - when you squeeze the trigger will it fire ? Three is capability- will the weapon be effective at the range ? and four is intent - does the other guy want to kill you ? If any of these things are missing then it's just a lump of useless metal.

[solvegas]

Now some of you may wish to put all your trust in the police to protect you but I won't. First of all, the police are a reactive force and very often it takes way too long for them to respond to your emergency. When I first moved here to Vegas in 1995, I moved into a apartment complex about two blocks north of the Rio casino on Valley View blvd. About two weeks after settling down, I heard a door being kicked in. My front door. Since I **82** with a loaded 12 gauge shotgun under my bed, I got up and cocked it. There were two young hispanic males treasure hunting and, when they saw that Mossburg pointed at them, they skeedadled real fast. I called the police and the landlord. For the next two months, other apartments were robbed but mine was left alone. Guess the word got out a fat, short man with a bad attitude to unwanted guests was not to be fucked with and to leave his property alone. I moved away a few months later. I simply believe that personal safety begins with the individual and to leave it to others is to invite disaster. As to hugeboobsfan who believes we should get rid of the armed forces, who is going to keep invading foreigners out ? You ?

[Hugeboobfan]

Quote:
solvegas said:
As to hugeboobsfan who believes we should get rid of the armed forces, who is going to keep invading foreigners out ? You ?

No silly, you are.  A fat, short man with a bad attitude and a 12 gauge shotgun.  

Besides, you yourself made the point that the founding fathers wanted us to own guns in part because of their distrust of a standing army and the threat presented by a tyrannical government.  Are you saying you disagree with the founding fathers?

[Clarence]

Hey Wal-Mart just got a huge shipment of ammo, meet ya there.



Clar- pro*gun -ence

[Dearc]

Quote:
Hugeboobfan said:

I have no idea what the last sentence there is supposed to mean.  What is greater than yourself?  Guns?  Have you elevated gun ownership to the level of religious idolatry?

Hugeboobfan said:
I agree.  We should eliminate the armed forces.

Hugeboobfan said:
No silly, you are.  A fat, short man with a bad attitude and a 12 gauge shotgun.  

Besides, you yourself made the point that the founding fathers wanted us to own guns in part because of their distrust of a standing army and the threat presented by a tyrannical government.  Are you saying you disagree with the founding fathers?

I believe in what this country stands for, 'free to be' ideology; not as much as I used to, but I will always believe that this is the greatest country the world has ever seen.  Now I'm going to watch all the huffy-puffy naysayers bust in and whine.

Huge, what is your problem with firearms?  Any personal experience?  Was your bum violated with pistol?  

As for getting rid of the Armed Forces, I refuse to think anyone is serious, so I'm taking it as a stupid joke.

The Founding Fathers wanted a better life for it's citizens and established as near as perfectly balanced gov't as possible.  Still, it's comprised of human beings elected by more human beings, not ordained by God.  There's ALWAYS the possiblity that a gov't will go too far and become tyrannical and oppressive, elected or not, then it's up to the citizens and/or rebellious military units to act, at least that's how I see it.

My guns, and the defensive knowledge I hold, protect me.  Not idolatry, but respect.  I'm more worried about gang bangers and home invaders than leftist communists on a tit forum.

You've made it clear that you refuse to respect others for their opinions, but you're not providing any opinions or solutions of your own.

[solvegas]

I served 20 years and two days in the US Navy, submarines to be specific. I was born in Mexico but moved here to the States when I was 14 and when I turned 18 proudly joined the armed forces. Parasites like you who disdain the labors of others for the freedom that you enjoy are typical of people who are ignorant of the real world. I keep guns so as to be able to defend myself. I do not seek trouble but if trouble comes I'll be prepared. You don't have to be a redneck to appeciate weapons. If people do not desire firearms that is their choise but they should not harras, deny or try to tyranize those who do. That is what freedom is. If flag burning is OK, then self defence is OK. And I use firearms for self defence.

[Hugeboobfan]

Quote:
Huge, what is your problem with firearms? Any personal experience? Was your bum violated with pistol?

Um no, but thanks for the wonderful imagery.  My "problem" is that while I understand that firearms are needed in a world of firearms, I dislike them intensely because they are killing machines with no other purpose.  I have a hard time understanding sometimes why others become so fascinated (obsessed?) with guns.  

Quote:
As for getting rid of the Armed Forces, I refuse to think anyone is serious, so I'm taking it as a stupid joke.

My point was only this: you and solvegas are willing to immediately dismiss the founding father's belief that a standing professional army is a bad idea, yet you accept as gospel truth the founding father's ideas that citizens should be armed to protect against potential government tyranny.  I understand the distinction that one is more clearly referenced in the bill of rights, but nevertheless it seemed solvegas was cherry picking the founder's beliefs to fit his own.

Quote:
My guns, and the defensive knowledge I hold, protect me. Not idolatry, but respect. I'm more worried about gang bangers and home invaders than leftist communists on a tit forum.

You've made it clear that you refuse to respect others for their opinions, but you're not providing any opinions or solutions of your own.

You are hardly behaving like the paradigm of geniality.  You've made numerous comments in this thread insinuating that others who disagree with you are like doe-eyed naive hippies yearning for utopia, or now "leftist communists".  You even insulted the french.  It reads like you've been listening to too much right-wing american radio and can't help but repeat their lame cliches.

Here's my opinion on the matter (I'm afraid I can't offer any easy solutions), and some lame cliches of my own:

There are a few things that drive me crazy about the gun-rights advocates I have known personally in my life.  They complain endlessly about potential restrictions on their rights to own guns, and as a justification usually bring up arguments about governmental tyranny or protecting their home.  Yet hardly ever do I hear them talk about any other rights other than gun ownership.  The war on drugs in america has been a massive intrusion on our individual liberties but I can count on my hand the number of times I've heard a gun enthusiast criticize drug laws.  The same goes for the recent warrantless wiretapping fiasco.  A lot of gun-nuts seem to be single issue voters, in the same way that a lot of anti-abortion nuts are.  There is only one issue they care about, and the rest of the world could rot down around them for all they care.

Regarding protecting the home, the gun enthusiasts I have known take it far beyond just buying a pistol, practicing every once in a while, and keeping it in a safe place.  Many seem to spend an absurd amount of time buying guns, cleaning guns, talking about guns, making bullets, and ranting about gun rights.  Everyone needs a hobby, but I find this gun obsession to be very strange.

Perhaps you are not this way, and fight tirelessly for rights other than just gun ownership.  I apologize if I am using my personal encounters to make assumptions about you or others on this board.  

I simply do not believe that more guns=more safety.  I shudder to think what it would be like if most of the college party crowd were walking around with concealed handguns.  I don't trust humans to be carrying around devices that can easily kill a bunch of people in a matter of minutes, no matter how many training classes they've been to.

However, we've progressed to a point in american society where there's no turning back.  There's simply too many guns out there already.  If it were up to me I would not outlaw the ownership of certain handguns and single-shot rifles (I would make long waiting periods and registration mandatory).  I can understand that people want the ability to protect themselves.  What really bothers me in the gun discussion is the narrow scope of it, and how many gun enthusiasts will vehemently protect their 2nd amendment rights, but ignore all others.

[TheZookie007]

Quote:
Dearc: there's a level of truth beyond facts, when you believe in something so strongly.

notty: If everyone felt that way, we'd still be living in the Dark Ages. Then again, you'd probably be right at home in such a world. You could use your swords and axes all day. You'd be happy as a pig in shit!

But you know, notty, he's right. There is a "level of truth beyond facts, when you believe in something so strongly" despite all evidence to the contrary. It's called faith. Some would call it "blind faith" or "a stubborn refusal to accept facts" but those are judgment calls in my opinion.

[TheZookie007]

Quote:
solvegas: As to hugeboobsfan who believes we should get rid of the armed forces, who is going to keep invading foreigners out ? You ?

Costa Rica has no army and no one has invaded them since they disbanded it. Not an exact equivalence to the US situation (we are a nuclear superpower engaged in two wars) but...

[TheZookie007]

Quote:
solvegas: I'm going to jump in here knowing full well that my stance will be taken wrong or incorrectly. The reason why the founding fathers inserted the 2nd amendment wasn't just so that people could go hunting or shoot for entertainment or anything like that. Thomas Jefferson himself said it was to ensure neither the federal, state or local goverment would have a monopoly of force. The experience they gained from the revolutionary war made them appreciate the fact that a well armed populace was able to get rid of the oppresive yoke of colonial rule. The british did not leave just because we asked them. And the founding fathers did not want a future American goverment to be able to tyranize the citizenry on a future date. Also, they had a tremendous distrust of a standing profesional army and so they also wanted able  bodied citizens to come to the common defense.

And part of the reason why they had such a distrust of a standing army was because of the negative experience that the king's forces and later mercenaries like the Hessians showed the colonists. I don't blame them in the slightest for having such a mistrust, and if we now hundreds of years later realized the true import of the Second Amendment, and the intention of the Founding Fathers when they wrote it, we'd have much less gun crime and whatnot.

[TheZookie007]

Quote:
solvegas: Anyways, perhaps some of you have heard of Israel or Switzerland. In those countries, all able bodied males are required to keep in their homes firearms which make Dirty Harry's .44 magnum look like a toy. In Switzerland it's a H&K 3 with 300 rounds. Yet there is no mayhem like in Mexico which severely restricts weapons to its citizens.

Not only do all Israeli and Swiss men have such firepower in their homes, but even mroe important, all able-bodied Swiss males (and all Israelis) have to serve a year in the armed forces, where they all are given proper training in how to handle a weapon, including when to use it. Something that is sorely lacking in America. I think that has a large part to play in why our gun deaths rates are so high.

[TheZookie007]

Quote:
Hugeboobfan: There are a few things that drive me crazy about the gun-rights advocates I have known personally in my life.  They complain endlessly about potential restrictions on their rights to own guns, and as a justification usually bring up arguments about governmental tyranny or protecting their home.  Yet hardly ever do I hear them talk about any other rights other than gun ownership.  The war on drugs in america has been a massive intrusion on our individual liberties but I can count on my hand the number of times I've heard a gun enthusiast criticize drug laws.  The same goes for the recent warrantless wiretapping fiasco.  A lot of gun-nuts seem to be single issue voters, in the same way that a lot of anti-abortion nuts are.  There is only one issue they care about, and the rest of the world could rot down around them for all they care...

I can understand that people want the ability to protect themselves.  What really bothers me in the gun discussion is the narrow scope of it, and how many gun enthusiasts will vehemently protect their 2nd amendment rights, but ignore all others.

I agree. It's the Bill of Rights, plural. We should all protect all of them, not just one to the exclusion of others.

Additionally, we as citizens are so quick to claim our rights, but we often forget that we also have responsibilities. Someone like solvegas, who became an American by choice, has a heightened sense of the rights/responsibilities ratio than most of us, who became Americans through the accident of birth. How many of us are willing to put our lives in danger to protect our fellow citizens like he has done by enlisting in the armed forces? (Such hyper-patriotism is quite common in naturalized citizens of any country, and I understand the reasoning behind it even as I may ruefully smile at it.) Most of us are more likely to sit around getting hammered and ogling pretty girls in bars and shooting the shit, and vote for American Idol instead of in a presidential election. All of us should do our part to even up the ratio of fighting for our rights with standing up to our responsibilities as good citizens.

[SwitcherX]

Quote:
gOOber said:
 

Quote:
 Jackson, Mississippi and Canada. Great comparison! Again! You're on a roll!

I hate Canadians as much as anyone but there's no reason to get personal.

XD

[notty]

This is officially a Top 10 thread.