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MunchWolf

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Re: "How Quantum Mechanics Got Me a Bigger Bra"
« Reply #30 on: May 29, 2004, 12:11:17 PM »
Quote:

Well I'm sorry if you found the information on implants to be more appropriate for this thread than my trying to better understand how to approach the globally puzzling problem of why our knowledge of genetics is still incomplete, albiet from a 'non-sensical' view.
   




Well ... I wouldn't call it a globally puzzling problem ... our knowledge is incomplete because it is a young science, and only now (within the past few decades) are we developing the tools to appriciate it better ...

When I first studied bio and genetics back in 89-93, it was amazing what was known.  Sure, there were no genomes mapped ... but there was a wealth of information available ... when I returned in 98-2000 to finish my studies I was amazed by how much advances had been made ... the same type of class I had taken just 5 years earlier had advanced several stages in material, because the information just wasn't there before ... I can see in ten to twenty the data rolling in at an increased rate ...

But just because you know something, doesn't mean you can do anything useful with it ...

Example, Huntington's disease ... a genetic disorder which first shows signs around 30, and degenerates you into the attributes of a **93** fool ... back in 93, no clue on what/where the gene was ... in 2000 the gene had been found (In normal people they have a small, very specific gene, but in cases of Huntingtons, this particular gene is expanded about 10x larger), yet even though it had been found, it was completely obscure how it even caused the disease, or what possible cure there could be (since .. well .. it's genetic ... it will be in every cell of your body).  Last I heard, I believe they know how the gene works, and I can see a relief of the disease being developed within 10 years ...

Now about big breasts ... believe me .. I tried finding any info about a gene for BB while in college ... what kind of boob fiend would I be if I didn't??  The closest I found was Klienfelter's Syndrome ... but I'm not sure we want to go down that road ...

I wasn't trying to say implants are the way to go .. just the most economical ... and if the implants are made with your own cells, which you could modify genetically (and thus stop being implants when merged with your body), it would be the ideal situation ...

Next would be biochemestry .. or hormone treatments ... to convince your body that it is in the proper phase to grow breasts again ... and yes, genetics can be useful to identify what chemical condition the body needs to be in ...

Last I would look at genetic manipulation .. why last?  well, it's great for developing and young systems .. where there are not many cells to change ... but not as good a solution for already developed systems (like an adult).  The exception would be if you wanted to target very specific systems in a person, renewable systems (like blood) ... then it would be possible if you changed the precurser cells, but still ... this would be the most expensive out of the three possiblities

-Munch "Have I blathered on long enough?" Wolf

   

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sheber

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Re: "How Quantum Mechanics Got Me a Bigger Bra"
« Reply #31 on: May 29, 2004, 02:54:11 PM »
Heh. I stayed with my Dad (a biologist) for a period after college and remember him having a program that allowed the user to apply mutagenic factors to dna and forcast the outcome. I'd spend hours trying to come up with the BB solution....

sheb "unfortunately, most results were terminal" er  
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flashbigger

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Re: "How Quantum Mechanics Got Me a Bigger Bra"
« Reply #32 on: May 29, 2004, 03:45:09 PM »
I maintain, at any rate, that this is a brilliant time to be alive. Science is a bell curve, as to the sheer amount we're learning at any given time. It can be broken down to more people = more scientists per generation, as the simplest reason. Beyond that, standards of education - however much we may complain - are significantly better with every generation, at least in terms of the amount and variance of what is learned.
 So instead of diving into the pool of knowledge and swimming down a few feet, we're diving in submarines and droping leagues, with greater speed as every year passes.
 What have we learned? That the ocean is a whole lot deeper than we ever imagined. Back in the fifties, many were the scifi writers who thought we'd have it all figured out by now. They even seemed to know what 'it all' was, right? Now we know better. Now we know that the more we know, the more we will know that we know nothing, as it has been said

 All the same, it's a great time to be alive. We may not live to see the mysteries of the universe unbound - in fact, I hope NO generation ever figures it out - but a few things: We'll see a man on mars. We'll see a long term colony on the moon. We'll see computers ten times as fast as the current high tech norm. And maybe, Juuuust maybe, we'll live to see a world in which truly gigantic breasts are happily possible.
 
Flash ~ Mad scientist in all of us ~ Bigger  
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MrHHH

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Re: "How Quantum Mechanics Got Me a Bigger Bra"
« Reply #33 on: May 29, 2004, 06:16:55 PM »
Chronic, enough with the mfkzt. Unless I can go to the store and buy the stuff. And I don't see anyone selling it. Also, if you don't like the old "Trial and error" method of science, how are you going to determine if a new method works?

From what I hear, there are many genetic switches that lead to cancer. And the more that are, er, in the incorrect position, the more likely you are to have breast cancer.

Quote:

 the problem with telling a certain part of the body to start growing rapidly, is in control ... how do you keep it to just that part? That's why cancer is nasty ... the tumor could be removed manually, but if a cell or two breaks off and floats around the blood stream, it could settle anywhere




Then don't have it grow rapidly. Women develop just fine without having to worry about a breast cell breaking off and landing in another part of the body.

I don't like hormones. It seems that too many cellular mechanisms are effected by them. I'd perfer something more precise.

I suppose you do have to be careful when screwing with junk DNA. But that would be only if you can't tell the difference between junk and active DNA. (I don't know the technical term for the non-junk)

Science is a bell curve? I don't get it.

Ok, how about something different then, instead of instructing the breasts to grow larger, how about changing where the body deposits fat?

 

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flashbigger

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Re: "How Quantum Mechanics Got Me a Bigger Bra"
« Reply #34 on: May 29, 2004, 07:00:34 PM »
A bell curve is a math figure, represented as a graph. The rise and fall of the graphline represents, in this case, the rate of increase in scientific knowledge. How fast the world is learning about science. Now, as you go farther to the right of the graph- in this case, farther into the future - the curve rises sharply, often at an exponential level. Now as you reach the top of the graph, the height of our learning, the curve begins to sway the other way, and begins dropping just as fast.
 But again, how deep is this ocean? We won't really start slowing down - hitting the top of the bell, as it were - until we have a clear view of the universe and can't find much else TO learn, logically. Either that, or we'll be presented with a problem so complex, it holds all of science back... which doesn't seem likely.

 As far as 'more controlled' methods with regards to cancer go, however, the most likely, and one of the most far fetched, ideas out there would be some kind of retrovirus. Now understand that the concept is not far fetched by any means. It's going to be an applied medical science in every day life not too long from now. But the kind of specified control we're looking at is dampened by the human body itself. We're DESIGNED to be integrated. All of our systems were built to work together, especially in our blueprints- DNA. Affecting one part of the DNA code affects hundreds of others at this point, so until we have a much deeper understanding of just how DNA plays into our existence, it's far fetched. In the end, however, an RNA coder retrovirus is the optimum idea for medical applications of all kinds, not just breast growth. Because, in theory, we could have absolute control over the bugger.
 At this stage, hormonal therapy, of the very specific and very expensive kind, has a MUCH greater degree of control to it, but will ultimately fall short of demands. Hormons, like veins, run all through the body and have different reactions in different places. So while we have a greater present understanding of hormone therapy, it will quickly reach it's control limits. Not much we can do about that either.

 So lets turn the conversation, erstwhile, back to MY area of interest. Quantum theory. Now, for those of you who have no idea what that refers to, if you're interested, I'll include These:
 Quantum Theory 101: Schroedingers Cat This is the base story, and introduces "The Observer Effect"
 Quantum Theory 110: Schroedingers Cat This is heavy on math and theory.

 This gets you to a place where you'll have an expert grasp of what I say next: It is, in theory, possible that an infinite number of universes exist, did exist, and will exist in an infinite number of ways and our observation is one of the keys of an infinite number of them.
 
Including our own. The whole point, philosophical, of ol' Doctor S and his cat, is a question of observation. Does something happen and cause us to see it, or does seeing it cause it to happen?

 Lets take it back to that old problem, if a tree falls in the woods, and no one is there to hear it, did it make a sound?
 Physically, yes, it had to, right? A moot point. If nothing observes the phenomenah, it neither made a noise, nor was silent. UnTIL something SEES the fallen tree, which goes to say that it must have made a noise when it fell, then no noise existed.

 We tend to confuse the issue of cause and effect. Seeing the effect of something, we can often infer its cause. Knowing someone, for example, was killed by a high speed bullet, implies the bullet was fired from a gun. But cause and effect are, thusly, interchangeable. Switch them. You see the gun fire, with a straight and true aim and no possibility of obstruction or dodging, but not the person die- you look away before it hits. Did he die?
 By all laws of physics, he must have. If NOTHING could have stopped that bullet, and he could not have moved from its path, he must have died.

 But the key isn't that there is a cause or effect! The key is that there is BOTH! In our universe, effects are onlu observed because something CAUSED them to be. They go hand in hand. But not until we see them. I bet ninety nine point nine to the hundred quadtillionth place of everything that happens in the universe goes unnoticed by us. And in our minds, it doesn't exist, does it?
 Does its existence depend on your observation? Point and case, if you don't observe, how can you be sure?

 Back to tig ol' bitties! Physicists have gone so far as to say that observation is the sole mount of existence. And in truth, it accounts for a lot of the more... incredulous things we see but cannot explain. Suppose you were to witness a yogi master levitate using nothing but the power of his mind. It is not YOUR observation that allows this to happen, because you are seeing an effect without a cause. Our logical minds reel away from it- there has to be a trick to it! Gravity works, it's a definitive effect (although still lacking a definitive cause, I should add). So this man cannot be floating.
 But if his own frame of mind were so altered that he could observe a LACK of gravity, would that not give it existence? I'm not talking mere imagining. I'm talking absolute observation.
 Whether or not you see the cause, after all, you ARE in fact observing the man float.

 Now we have to talk about collective free will. If you observe something- and for the rest of this argument, the 'something' in question is like our floating yogi. Seeimingly without a cause - and I and twenty others do not, its existence is proven, if only to you. This, we call a dillusion. If twenty people see something, and the rest of the world does not, it is mass hysteria or superstition. If two hundred people see something, it is legend. If two thousand people see something, it is an unexplained phenomenon. If two million people see something, it is fact.

 I go back to the collective **62**. If you were to get two million people to observe a womans breasts, growing before their eyes - let us suppose through mass hypnosis - perhaps this thought would be like a blast of sound into the collective **61**. Perhaps everyone would then see her breasts as massive. Are they really? Well, that brings up a whole new debate about reality. What IS real, folks?
 I've, for YEARS now, challenged every fellow philosopher I've met with a simple contest. PROVE to me something is real. Or unreal. Prove ANYTHING to me, and I'll give you everything I own... it's not much, but I DO have a nice computer.

 On that mercenary note, I bid you all good day.

~FlashBiggerfromthetwentythirdandahalf CEENTURRYYYYYYYYYY!!! ~
Another Velvet Morning for Me.
-The Verve

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Chronicler

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Re: "How Quantum Mechanics Got Me a Bigger Bra"
« Reply #35 on: May 30, 2004, 01:58:22 AM »
.. you can't buy mfkzt in stores because the DoD  railroaded the patents on at least 21 ORMEs away from the guy (David Hudson) who rediscovered their properties.

Enough about that then. I will shut up about anything remotely bibilical. It seems not everyone is as tolerant of a spiritual approach to science, and I guess I can understand why. I am truly sorry if I offended anyone. I am not a hardcore religious type that thinks human cloning and gene manipulation is just innately bad. If you got the impression that I was trying to derail the thread because of my 'convictions', I can assure you that was not what I intended. Again, sorry people. Bad idea.

But, I truly believe there may be some substance, or at least enough of a correllation to deserve a look, between some of that stuff and the unified field theory, and other theories. That's all.

And while I agree that scientific controls are essential, I do not think they, of themselves, necessitate the removal of things like ethics and creative thinking from any given scientific discipline. That kind of mentality is what creates toxic watersheds and the like.

The reason I even bring any of it up at all is because Craig Venter, leader of one of the teams that mapped the human genome, had this to say when the teams presented their findings to the world:
Quote:

We have only 300 unique genes in the human that are not in the mouse.... We had a hard time understanding the control mechanism when we thought there were 100,000 (genes). Now we have only a third as many... This tells me (Venter) genes can't possibly explain all of what makes us what we are.


and
Quote:

I believe all of our behaviors, all of our sizes and functions clearly have a genetic component but genes only explain part of the process.


and
Quote:

We are around as a species because we have an adaptability that goes beyond the genome.


This coming from one of the utmost human authorities on the subject. 20 years of research and painstaking effort into this area, and genetic science alone still can't tell me how to get my girlfriend a nice pair of kneeshooters  ...just to try and establish that I'm not blowing random crap from my ass for the sake of blowing random crap from my ass, even if it is a stretch to see the connection I am trying to make.

I mean, to DNA, we understand that Cytosine always pairs with Thyamine, and that Adenine always pairs with Guanine, but we only partially understand what it is that causes the base pairs to group in this way.

Regardless, I seriously doubt that we are going to solve this problem within this thread before it dies and falls into obscurity. So, everything I read in here, I am taking with a grain of salt, or three, because even if we did figure it out, I don't think the scientific community would take a hypothesis from a bunch of horny guys talking about how to genetically alter the size of a woman's boobs all that seriously.      

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flashbigger

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Re: "How Quantum Mechanics Got Me a Bigger Bra"
« Reply #36 on: May 30, 2004, 05:43:58 AM »
Wow, Chronic. Um... I don't think you SERIOUSLY damaged anyone and, though I won't ever speak for everyone, I was personally listening to your ideas as much as everyone elses. After all, they may be improbable, but that's the nature of the beast. ALL of these ideas are improbable at our level of understanding, right?
 Unless anyone has a distinct problem with it, lets agree to discuss - at any reasonable length - any ideas that pop up before, as our friend so eloquently put it, this thread "dies and falls into obscurity".
 The only bad question is the one you don't ask and all that? Good with everyone? Good. It's late, and I don't have another rant in me at this point, but I would like to present the following for no reason but that its nearly four AM:

 "Rub-a-dub-dub, great tits in a tub,
 Of breast enlargement cream.
 She read the instructions and made some deductions,
 In hopes of realizing her dream.
 
 Overflowing the tub, those great tits did rub,
 The carpet in just such a way,
 She screamed with delight, and reached for the light,
 To darken her room until day."

 With that, I say, Good Night!

Flash ~It's always time for crappy poetry ~ Bigger  
Another Velvet Morning for Me.
-The Verve

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MrHHH

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Re: "How Quantum Mechanics Got Me a Bigger Bra"
« Reply #37 on: May 30, 2004, 05:21:21 PM »
I don't see knowledge as a bell curve, I see it as a exponential curve. I could imagine it being a bell curve, but seeing how we don't know everything about ANYTHING yet, I can't imagine it being a bell curve.

Man, you've really gone off the deep end though. You've spewed out a lot of...stuff, but your end point is "What is real?"

What is real? What is REAL? What the hell are you talking about?! We're trying to figure out a BE method and you're flipping philosophy questions at us. Look, I don't mind philosophy, but this is the wrong thread for it.

Feel free to create a new thread in the off-topic area called "What is real?"  

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MrHHH

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Re: "How Quantum Mechanics Got Me a Bigger Bra"
« Reply #38 on: May 30, 2004, 05:52:13 PM »
Quote:

.. you can't buy mfkzt in stores because the DoD  railroaded the patents on at least 21 ORMEs away from the guy (David Hudson) who rediscovered their properties.





Great, lets look at those patents and get started. After all, if you can make anything from WWII in your garage, making stuff from ancient history will be a snap.

The great thing about patents is that they spell out how to do things. Can you give me a list of those 21 patents?

Quote:


Enough about that then. I will shut up about anything remotely bibilical. It seems not everyone is as tolerant of a spiritual approach to science, and I guess I can understand why.





Yeah, you're way off though. I have nothing against spiritualism. This is my problem:

If you can replicate the effect, then it's not spiritualism, it's science. That's the only hurdle. If you can't replicate the effect, then how in the world is this going to be a solution for anything?

Quote:

But, I truly believe there may be some substance, or at least enough of a correllation to deserve a look, between some of that stuff and the unified field theory, and other theories. That's all.




That may be, but none of that has anything to do with BE. Please start another thread if you want to talk about that stuff.

Quote:

And while I agree that scientific controls are essential, I do not think they, of themselves, necessitate the removal of things like ethics and creative thinking from any given scientific discipline. That kind of mentality is what creates toxic watersheds and the like.




Great, come up with a list of universal ethics and I'll get back to you on that.

Quote:

This coming from one of the utmost human authorities on the subject. 20 years of research and painstaking effort into this area, and genetic science alone still can't tell me how to get my girlfriend a nice pair of kneeshooters...




Ok, then. This is something discussable. Now, I see the problem as "genetics is very complex. And with the legal environment in the US, nobody is going to fund the money on something like Breast Enhancement because if something goes wrong (And with genetics, someone, somewhere, will be mutant enough for the method to go wrong) it will ruin the company.

Seriously, when was the human genome sequenced? A couple of years ago? As much as I'd like to see results from that, all we really did was identify the genes. We know what we have and where they are, but what do they do? Dunno. That's gonna be a LOT of research. And it's going to be slow because we can't experiment on humans to find how what the genes do. I see a way to work it. One is to get genetic samples from very busty women and see if there is a common thread among them.

Did you know they're working on a gene sequencing kit that costs less than 1000$?

Quote:


Regardless, I seriously doubt that we are going to solve this problem within this thread before it dies and falls into obscurity. So, everything I read in here, I am taking with a grain of salt, or three, because even if we did figure it out, I don't think the scientific community would take a hypothesis from a bunch of horny guys talking about how to genetically alter the size of a woman's boobs all that seriously.




So we shouldn't even try thinking about it because the problem is hard and we won't solve it. Sheesh.

And who gives a flying fuck about the science community? We're not looking into this to further our scientific standing.  

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sheber

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Re: "How Quantum Mechanics Got Me a Bigger Bra"
« Reply #39 on: May 30, 2004, 06:46:17 PM »
I can see it now..."You've been one billion dollars for this genetics project and all you've come up with is the big boob gene?"
[Rent this space]

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flashbigger

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Re: "How Quantum Mechanics Got Me a Bigger Bra"
« Reply #40 on: May 30, 2004, 08:49:43 PM »
MrHHH, sorry for stepping on your buttons, or whatever I've done. I may have taken the long way of getting there, but my whole point was only to show that anything may very well ~BE~ possible. I can appreciate you wanting to keep us on topic, but have a more open mind of what "on topic" IS, if you please.  

 And again, if you only wish to hear about the genetic end of this worldly debate, kindly scan my next posts quickly. If they have nothing to do with it, that you can see, ignore them. As it is, I've made my point ~and then some ~ on the realms of 'if' so I'll be sticking to genetics and/or other more... mainstream approaches. If I'm coming off as rude, I'm honestly not meaning to, and I apologize.

 FlashBigger
 
Another Velvet Morning for Me.
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flashbigger

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Re: "How Quantum Mechanics Got Me a Bigger Bra"
« Reply #41 on: May 30, 2004, 08:57:50 PM »
So, the Human Genome Project, the road map of what roads are where, but not where they're going.

 The great thing about DNA is that experimentation, for a good ninety percent of the whole genome wouldn't involve testing on a live person. Live CELLS are just as good, unless the genetic code requires many different types of cells to reveal its purpose. For example, by experimenting on a single cells genetic material, scientists have been able to sufficiently find and monitor mutations that cause most types of cancer, and a number of genetic diseases. Again, the problem with knowing the how, isn't as important as knowing the why. Sure we know that this section causes the regulation of blood clotting, and this section is responsible for the formation of muscles, but what does this knowledge afford us? At present, not a whole lot.

 Suppose scientists, today, were to find a single gene sequence that was responsible for breast growth/overall fat ratios.
 Suppose we know how that works, right now. How is this advantageous? We understand perfectly how AIDS works, and most kinds of cancer. But we haven't found a cure for either.

 Just food for thought.
~Flash  
Another Velvet Morning for Me.
-The Verve

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L_C_R_ANT

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Re: "How Quantum Mechanics Got Me a Bigger Bra"
« Reply #42 on: May 30, 2004, 09:23:47 PM »
ok I might was well throw my two cents in on this topic.  Know ahead of time though that I know effectively zip about genetics, biology, and quantum physics...  That said...

In my opinion what the geneticists keep calling junk DNA I don't think is junk at all.  We just haven't figured out what each individual gene represents.  As chronic said in his previous post in a quote from the Venter, only 300 genes that are unique to humans, from those of a mouse, out of 100,000... ok fine so those genes obviously govern the size, general shape of, and most macro-level configurations of the parts of the body.  I.E. how long the forarm is for a human Vs a mouse, what muscles are present in a given limb and their general sizen in a human Vs. a mouse, which areas of the brain develop more and what physical size the parts are in a human Vs. a mouse.

Now, one might be tempted to say what else is there?  But then I ask you, ok, where's the code that determines the make up of an intestinal lining cell, versus a muscle cell, versus a brain cell.  I say that's what the so called junk DNA is and that's why it's still there and why so many organism have nearly identical genes.  Think about it, they say that the difference between a chimp's genes and ours is less then 0.1% and when you think about it, our bodies our made out of almost identical cells in a nearly identical configuration from the brain cells, to the muscle cells, bone cells, stomach cells, what have you.

so yes those 300 different genes may make the difference between whether an organism develops into a mouse or a human, but the others technically determin whether the organism is single celled, multi-celled, plant, fungus, bactiria, animal, reptile, amphibian, aquatic, mamal, warm-blooded, cold-blooded, or marsupial.  They also determine what organs are present, how they are connected, what cells each one is made out of, how many cells are needed and in what configuration they come together in, and even how the cells themselves are composed, and how they work, what internal parts they have and so on.  When they said that DNA and the genes were the building blocks of life they weren't kidding.  All that DNA that we have in common is in common for a reason and it certainly isn't junk.  

Sorry for the long post.  
"When life hands you lemons, put em' in your bra. Couldn't hurt, might even help!"

"Never nock on Death's door... Ring the bell and run away! He hates that!"

"When playing poker with Death, he's always holding a Full House... It's just that 9 times outa 10, I'm holding a Royal Flush!"  --Me

"The main reason I'll gamble with Death is Fate cheats!"  --Me

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MrHHH

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Re: "How Quantum Mechanics Got Me a Bigger Bra"
« Reply #43 on: May 31, 2004, 06:08:50 PM »
Quote:

I can see it now..."You've been one billion dollars for this genetics project and all you've come up with is the big boob gene?"  




Man, if you figured out how to make boobs bigger, and only made 10$ off of each treatment, you'd be richer than Bill Gates.  

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MrHHH

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Re: "How Quantum Mechanics Got Me a Bigger Bra"
« Reply #44 on: May 31, 2004, 06:18:48 PM »
Ok, you're not understanding the 300 gene thing. There are 300 unique genes that do not exist in a mouse. If you understand how evolution works, this doesn't seem that unusual. How different is your heart from a mouse heart? It's larger, maybe the muscles are placed a little different or it has a slightly different way to regulate it's beat. I say genes that determine size and muscle placement are not "unique". Is there any differences that requires a unique gene?

If junk DNA actually does stuff, how do you tell the difference between junk DNA and non-junk?

There's a purpose for junk DNA, but it certainly isn't as the blueprint for body building.