[andrat2000]

A typical example of a misuse of a referendum. And the common citizens are falling for it.

I agree, referendums aren't the best way find solutions.  Is was a bad idea to have the Brexit vote for instance. But then again - hard to disagree with democracy.

I can easily disagree.
Look at it like this. Democracy is always about reasonable compromise to get a broader consent. And this happens after negotians. Now referendum are the opposite. The initiators can launch an extremist referendum request (if enough support it). In many or some countries the legislation has to follow this. Now let the extremist populist manipulate the citizens and the outcome is a vote that is not founded on democratic principles anymore. It is the misuse of a democracy process by one party.

A referendum only works if the yes / no quesiton is not a decission about extremist questions. The Brexit is such an example. And would the UK government have enough cochonnes they would by now stop the Brexit and stay where they are and redraw their declare of the EU exit. A better deal than Thatcher did for them they won't achieve anymore. Actually they could have had a improved deal before the Brexit vote. The EU offered some improvements for the UK if they stay. From there it only got worser ...

[andrat2000]

I think it was Churchill who said something about democracy being the worst form of government, until compared to the alternatives. Or something like that.

We 'Muricans kicked the Nazis' asses once before...and we can do it again! I hope.

Under Trumpel this won't happen ... He would love to see the Nazis have their "Endsieg" over Germany. They want what he wants.

[Hiram]

We 'Muricans kicked the Nazis' asses once before...and we can do it again! I hope.

There was quite a price to pay though. 

I've always had the greatest of respect for the Germany Army - in WWII they were well trained and well equipped.  Had better decisions been made at the time from the top, and Hitler had listen to his generals, you may have found it a harder task to defeat Nazism.

[andrat2000]

We 'Muricans kicked the Nazis' asses once before...and we can do it again! I hope.

There was quite a price to pay though. 

I've always had the greatest of respect for the Germany Army - in WWII they were well trained and well equipped.  Had better decisions been made at the time from the top, and Hitler had listen to his generals, you may have found it a harder task to defeat Nazism.

There is nothing to have respect for. There was no "clean" German Army in WW2. They where completely involved in the termination program of the Nazis. The German Wehrmacht was a willing tool for Hitler. And it is an absolute myth that they where technically superior or well equiped. Even training. If you use amphetamins (what is now known eg. as Crystal Meth) to keep them fighting ...
The tanks were to heavy, too slow, too much fuel consumption. There are a lot more examples ...
The war was to gain control of oil fields because it was lacking in Germany. To gain resources.

The German army Wehrmacht was nothing to be proud of - really nothing.

[Hiram]

There is nothing to have respect for.

Not the ideology of the Germany Army of WWII - but the professionalism and high quality of their equipment. 

I disagree about German tanks of WWII - The Panther wasn't a bad tank at all.  I think we need to bear in mind how crap British tanks were at the time in comparison.  Even the US Sherman wasn't that good, they just made lots of them.  My favorite was the Tiger tank.

German aircraft of the time where better than British aircraft -  but the Spitfire was better than the ME109 though. And we had some good bombers.

Then there were the U Boats.  V1 and V2 rockets. 

[andrat2000]

There is nothing to have respect for.

Not the ideology of the Germany Army of WWII - but the professionalism and high quality of their equipment. 

I disagree about German tanks of WWII - The Panther wasn't a bad tank at all.  I think we need to bear in mind how crap British tanks were at the time in comparison.  Even the US Sherman wasn't that good, they just made lots of them.  My favorite was the Tiger tank.

German aircraft of the time where better than British aircraft -  but the Spitfire was better than the ME109 though. And we had some good bombers.

Then there were the U Boats.  V1 and V2 rockets.

One of the other myths. The Tiger tank only had a good cannon and the protection was good at the beginning of it's use. From the weight point of view it was crap because too heavy for most of the bridges and the technic unreliable because it was engineered without many tests and no reliablility built in. Also the undercarriage was often defective and the gearing mechanism.

And Hollywood (and games manufacturer) built more myth around it then it really was.

https://www.welt.de/geschichte/zweiter-weltkrieg/article135843307/Der-Mythos-vom-ueberlegenen-Tiger-Panzer.html


And by the way the Wehrmacht had a lot of children soldiers, too ....
A lot of myths built up.

[Robin_K2]

While I'm a history buff, I would appreciate our members' thoughts on more current events, such as:

Trump on the NFL?

Trump, North Korea and nuclear war?

Trump and ongoing Russia investigation?

Impeachment?

25th Amendment?

Healthcare bill under consideration?

[rtpoe]

Trump on the NFL?
Trump is an ass. Respect for the flag actually means respecting the ideals that it represents, not a mere piece of cloth. I suspect you'll see a lot more knee-taking in the future; and the NFL will do just fine.
And by the way, asking for people to be fired is a violation of 18 U.S. Code § 227 - "Wrongfully influencing a private entity’s employment decisions by a Member of Congress or an officer or employee of the legislative or executive branch."
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/227
"...shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for not more than 15 years, or both, and may be disqualified from holding any office of honor, trust, or profit under the United States."

Trump, North Korea and nuclear war?
This is what worries me. I don't see anyone who can drag El Presidente back from his brinksmanship.

Trump and ongoing Russia investigation?
Oh, look! Jared Kushner used his own private e-mail account!
http://www.politico.com/story/2017/09/24/jared-kushner-private-email-white-house-243071

Impeachment?
Not as long as the GOP controls Congress. No matter how awful Trump is, he's still one of them. Maybe if he made another deal or two with the Democrats....

Healthcare bill under consideration?
It's dead. Susan Collins (R-Maine) came out against it, making it virtually impossible for McConnell to get the 50 votes he needs before the deadline passes.

What all the football stuff is distracting us from is the disaster underway in Puerto Rico.

That island has been obliterated ("apocalyptic" is how it's being described by people there) by Hurricane Maria. There are 3.5 MILLION AMERICANS there, and it's being estimated that it will take up to six months - HALF A YEAR - to restore power. A rough rule of thumb is that EIGHTY PERCENT of everything has been destroyed. Cell phone towers? 80% gone. Farms and agriculture? 80% wiped out. Drinkable water? Without power, 80% gone. And it's an island, so the only access is by boat or plane. You can't drive supplies in and people out like you can with Houston and Florida.

With no power, hospitals don't have air conditioning. Or refrigeration. Without cell phone towers, there's no contact at all with the more isolated parts of the island.

Over the weekend, El Presidente tweeted 17 times about football players and athletes. To date, he's only tweeted twice about Puerto Rico (and those were before Maria hit).

According to Huffington Post's Jennifer Bendery, who's been talking with people on Capitol Hill, Congress is ready to get the ball rolling on sending aid to Puerto Rico once the Trump administration asks them to, in what they expect will be just one to three weeks.....

Puerto Rico's governor Ricardo Rossello has made it clear that they are American citizens, and deserve to be treated like it. He called on the federal government to step up, noting that residents could leave in droves if the commonwealth doesn’t recover quickly, compounding the island's troubles. "My fear is we’re going to have some side effects that are devastating both for Puerto Rico and the United States. Mainly massive migration that would deteriorate our [economic] base here in Puerto Rico and would provoke significant demographic shifting in other areas of the United States."

As citizens, they are free to move to anywhere in the 50 states.....and vote Democratic.....

[andrat2000]

@Robin_K: the history lesson is recent. You probably don't know it but our German Nazis again praise the war mongering doings of the German Wehrmacht. They will tell you how clean the armed was and nothing todo with the Hitler termination doings. Bla bla bla. They would like us to respect the achievements of the German Wehrmacht in the two world wars. It is a very hot and recent topic.

@rtpoe: is it possible Trumpel doesn't care for the US fellow citizens of Puerto Rico because they are excluded from presidential elections? Are they allowed on any poll to participate? Congress? Do they send a senate member?

Maybe the Latinos from Puerto Rico are just an underrace for Trumpel and they do remember him of Mexicans. And since he does no progress in eliminating Mexicans from the US he instead now is happy what happens to the Puerto Ricans?

[andrat2000]

@rtpoe: not only Kushner used his private e-mail accounts for official communication in the government. Also Ivanka Trump. And 6 consuting staff: Steve Bannon, Gary Cohn, Stephen Miller and Priebus.

I hope they all get arrested now and locked away. They are crooked.

[andrat2000]

This is what I expect from the Twitter corporation:

Either remove the private Trumpel account or remove Trumpels possibility to block users! He mustn't block users at all.

It is unbelievable that he e.g. blocks a user who spoke out against a bill killing Obamacare. She has stage 4 cancer, you god damn asshole!
https://twitter.com/funder/status/910986129050128384?s=09

[gonZo]

Can we get our Nazis to fight their Nazis?

[TheZookie007]

Can we get our Nazis to fight their Nazis?

Their Nazis would probably win, unfortunately.

By the way, can I tell you how incensed I am about the situation in Puerto Rico? They're not going to have electricity for A THIRD OF A YEAR, and the current occupant of the White House is more interested in going to rallies and "disinviting" people -- people who had already said that they had no intention of coming.

This is not normal.

[TheZookie007]

Trump on the NFL?
Trump is an ass. Respect for the flag actually means respecting the ideals that it represents, not a mere piece of cloth. I suspect you'll see a lot more knee-taking in the future; and the NFL will do just fine.
And by the way, asking for people to be fired is a violation of 18 U.S. Code § 227 - "Wrongfully influencing a private entity’s employment decisions by a Member of Congress or an officer or employee of the legislative or executive branch."
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/227
"...shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for not more than 15 years, or both, and may be disqualified from holding any office of honor, trust, or profit under the United States."

Equally as important is to note that despite what he or any of his acolytes try to tell you, Colin Kaepernick's protest isn't about the flag or the military: it's a protest against the systemic racial inequalities in this country, specifically relating to the extra-judicial killings of hundreds if not thousands of Americans by the police, without any justice for the victims.

But don't take it from me (or from Kaep's own words on the matter). Take it from this guy:


Shareblue: "Four star general: “I know something about the flag … put me down with Kaepernick”"

...Now even Michael Hayden, a four-star general who served in the military for 39 years and went on to serve as national security adviser and head the CIA, has taken a side — and it’s not with Trump.

In a powerful and blistering op-ed, Hayden explained the evolution of his feelings about former 49ers quarterback Colin Kaepernick protesting police brutality against black communities by kneeling during the national anthem.

He “wasn’t enthusiastic about turning a unifying and celebratory moment for most Americans into a venue for protest,” Hayden writes.

But Trump changed that for Hayden with his deplorable rant last Friday about “son of a bitch” players who should stand during the national anthem or be fired.

"Trump, before a red-hot Alabama crowd of his political base, decided to treat the “SOBs” who wouldn’t stand for the anthem the way he has previously treated other groups like Mexicans (murderers and rapists), intelligence professionals (Nazis), immigrants (deeply unfair), refugees (dangerous), and Muslims (they hate us)."

Worse, though, is the subsequent spin from Trump, his administration, and his supporters defending Trump’s behavior. For days, they have grossly distorted the entire point of the protest into something else entirely, insisting that those players who kneel are in fact protesting the flag itself, the national anthem, and even the men and women who have served in uniform.

On Monday, for example, White House press secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders brazenly claimed that Trump’s attack on black athletes is about “national pride in our country. And supporting those that have fought and died to defend it.” She even dared to say that his position “should be something that every American can get behind and support and celebrate.”

That is not how Hayden, who unlike the draft-dodging president actually has served in uniform, sees it.

“As a 39-year military veteran, I think I know something about the flag, the anthem, patriotism, and I think I know why we fight,” he writes. “It’s not to allow the president to divide us by wrapping himself in the national banner. I never imagined myself saying this before Friday, but if now forced to choose in this dispute, put me down with Kaepernick.”

Trump has continued his bitter, divisive, un-American tirade against NFL players for several days now, with no sign of stopping. According to Politico White House reporter Josh Dawsey, Trump even told conservatives on Monday that his fight with the NFL is “going well” and that he wants it to continue.

It is a sickening exploitation of the powerful protests against racism and police brutality, though not surprising coming from this president. Meanwhile, his feud has provoked condemnation from team owners who donated to him, from the widow of Pat Tillman, and now from a four star general.

Bottom line is: when you're a black person in America, no matter how you choose to exercise your Constitutionally-protected right to protest, it seems you can't win...especially if you're in a league with almost 100% white ownership yet with 70% of the players being non-white.

[andrat2000]

Can we get our Nazis to fight their Nazis?

The Nazis have a failed integration into society and need external assistance to manage their lives or it is a pathological issue, then there are psychiatrists and psychiatric clinic with open or closed departments in it.

My preferred way to deal with them.