[PregNut]

Steering wheel holders that go 60mph on the 2-lane road with a posted 40mph limit, then go 50mph on the 4-lane highway with a posted 65mph limit. I encounter one of these morons nearly every day on my way to or from work.

[MasterDragonfly]

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People completely unfamiliar with the subjunctive form of "to be". Instead of saying "If I were you" they say "If I was you"

Isn't that just lack of confidence? They're not sure about the subjunctive mood, so they opt out and use the lazy "If I was you".

Ah, were it only so simple.  

Truth be told, it's the educational system over here.  Not just the USA, but Canada as well.  I had a Linguistics prof (who was also my Japanese prof, and the head of the language laboratory (all languages)) who would cut us some slack (this was in Canada) and say, "Ah, well you're victims of the Ontario educational system *soft chuckle*."  He was a pretty cool prof and I never felt sleighted by him.  Even used one class to demonstrate the Heimlich maneuvre (I was the ad hoc 'dummy') on the spur of the moment.

Strangely, I learned about the subjunctive form in English while I was on a German exchange programme.  While in Germany.  I had just finished saying something like "If I was you..." and he corrected me, citing the subjunctive form.  I thought he was full of it, till he explained.

I'm sure there's plenty I don't know about the English language, and won't know unless I stumble into it.  This is one area where Great Britain is head and shoulders above others.  At least when compared to Southern Ontario.  I can't really comment on the rest of the world.

ObThingWhichAnnoysMe:  Hangovers.  'Nuff said.

[Hiram]

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This is one area where Great Britain is head and shoulders above others.  At least when compared to Southern Ontario.  I can't really comment on the rest of the world.

I’m not sure I agree with that.

If you read Shakespeare, you’d notice how much the English language has changed in 500 years.  It's an evolving language, which evolves - I don’t believe there is a wrong or right way to speak it.

[doggo]

 

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It's an evolving language ... I don’t believe there is a wrong or right way to speak it.

That's the standard cop-out from the apologists for modern education. There is a right or wrong way, as there is for most things. Sadly, many teachers are not equipped to teach the right way as they don't know the right way themselves.

[collared_cherri]

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If you read Shakespeare, you’d notice how much the English language has changed in 500 years.  It's an evolving language, which evolves - I don’t believe there is a wrong or right way to speak it.

Only the English can claim to speak proper English.  The rest of the world speak a dialect of English.  

I´m always surprised just how different the languages can be from one English-speaking country to another.  There are times when I really can´t understand the locals here in Texas, and the feeling is mutual.  It frustrates me.  It´s not nearly so bad when hubby is with me because he can usually translate for me.  We´ve known each other long enough that he can pretty much determine what it is I´m saying, even when I speak in Down Under Lingo (with the occasional exception when I introduce a new word/term he´s not heard me use before).  But when I´m on my own, sometimes I have to spell words out or settle for something I didn´t want, use sign language, or go away empty-handed.

I´ve learned to Americanize a lot of what I say.  But one thing I still don´t get is when to ask where the ´bathroom´, ´restroom´ or ´washroom´ is.  I don´t understand what the difference is, or when to use it. I´m used to just asking for the dunny or toilet and being understood.

cherri

[smiley]

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This is one area where Great Britain is head and shoulders above others.  At least when compared to Southern Ontario.  I can't really comment on the rest of the world.

Not anymore I'm afraid, during the 1990s grammar and correct punctuation fell out of favour in the Anglo-Welsh education system in favour of 'self-expression'. This has resulted in the *farce* of children getting passing marks for essays written in mobile phone-style 'txt-spk'!  

Even when I was going through the school system (early 1990s) the disadvantages of this rejection of grammatical training were obvious to any intelligent person; what's the good of being able to express yourself if no-one can understand what you're trying to say?

Thankfully the Scots (who have a separate education system to the rest of the UK) didn't succumb to this ridiculous hippy-dippy ethic and they are now being held up as a standard for grammatical English to the rest of the country.

Some of the most correct speakers of English I know are actually from India. They're taught the language by rote in school and the forms and exceptions stay with them for life. I suppose in a country with 600+ languages learning correct grammar in one of the most widespread becomes something of a necessity.

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I’m not sure I agree with that.

If you read Shakespeare, you’d notice how much the English language has changed in 500 years.  It's an evolving language, which evolves - I don’t believe there is a wrong or right way to speak it.

Shakespeare spoke and wrote in midlands dialect, 'Brummie' to those in the know (try it! Every speech in Shakespeare scans if said in a Birmingham accent). This was before Johnson, Webster and the other encyclopedists(sp?) systematised London and Philadelphia English as 'Standard English' in the 18th century.

Right or wrong way to speak English at present? Given that English is the international language of communication, looked at on a purely pragmatic level:

Clarity of pronunciation and regularity of grammatical formation maximises the number of people who can understand you, therefore = good.
Slang and dialect, although colourful and evocative, excludes those not familiar with its use and context, therefore = bad.

Standard English (whatever accent you speak it with) is the *right* way to speak English to ensure maximum diffusion of your message through the English-speaking populace.

[doggo]

 

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Cherri: But one thing I still don´t get is when to ask where the ´bathroom´, ´restroom´ or ´washroom´ is.

"Strewth, mate, where can a shiela get a piss round here?"

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Smiley: Shakespeare spoke and wrote in midlands dialect, 'Brummie' to those in the know (try it! Every speech in Shakespeare scans if said in a Birmingham accent).

I shall have to try that.

Now, where's that copy of Row-miaow and Julie-itt?

[MaxBigfoot]

The long standing pricing standard of the .99, and it's lesser used prices of anything that ends with 9 cents.  I hate it.
Why nobody can use round numbers to price anything escapes me.  I've been told that it's a psychological ploy, as the price is less than that round number it would round to, but if so, it doesn't work on me.  It's even worse with some taxes, in Canada the GST is 7 percent.  So you get tons of pennies that by rights don't need to exist.  

[doggo]

Didn't it originate so as to prevent employees taking the money and pocketing it? If the price was just below an even amount, the cashier had to ring up the sale in order to give the customer her penny (cent, farthing) change.

[MasterDragonfly]

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This is one area where Great Britain is head and shoulders above others.  At least when compared to Southern Ontario.  I can't really comment on the rest of the world.

Not anymore I'm afraid, during the 1990s grammar and correct punctuation fell out of favour in the Anglo-Welsh education system in favour of 'self-expression'. This has resulted in the *farce* of children getting passing marks for essays written in mobile phone-style 'txt-spk'!  

Sorry to hear that.  I really didn't know this.  

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Even when I was going through the school system (early 1990s) the disadvantages of this rejection of grammatical training were obvious to any intelligent person; what's the good of being able to express yourself if no-one can understand what you're trying to say?

Thankfully my training wasn't nearly so impaired.  But from what I've seen around me in the online world, there's been some serious damage domestically.  One of my co-workers captured a series of random IMs (at least one of them recurring, for some unknown reason) and the moron who was trying to be a smartass ended up being mocked quite easily by my linguistically adept co-worker.  He posted it on an internal wiki just for giggles.  I've referred to it more than once when I've needed some cheering up.  

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Thankfully the Scots (who have a separate education system to the rest of the UK) didn't succumb to this ridiculous hippy-dippy ethic and they are now being held up as a standard for grammatical English to the rest of the country.

Again, didn't know this.

One interesting (or possibly completely uninteresting) tidbit is that Craig Ferguson (expat. of Scotland) is the host of The Late Late Show here in the USA.  Both cherri and I find his style of humour to be much funnier than that of Dave Letterman.  Strangely, he doesn't seem to know the first thing about Canada; I've caught a few of his shows where he's talking about how he inadvertently insulted Toronto and its citizens.  On the plus side (if you can call it that), I felt a bit better about myself when he was trying to determine what state 'MO' referred to.  Given that I'd lived and worked in Missouri for a spell, I should have learned at least that much.  

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Some of the most correct speakers of English I know are actually from India. They're taught the language by rote in school and the forms and exceptions stay with them for life. I suppose in a country with 600+ languages learning correct grammar in one of the most widespread becomes something of a necessity.

Germans (last I checked) are pretty structured in their educational system as well.  If they study English long enough, they don't sound anything like the stereotypical Germans you see on TV; they actually sound like they've been speaking the Queen's English for most, if not all, of their lives.

Back when I was still working in Toronto, a good chunk of my team had a Chinese background.  Most of them could speak Cantonese, so at times they would drop into Cantonese with each other.  One member of the team was Chinese, but didn't know any Cantonese.  I knew from my own studies that he could speak Mandarin.  His accent was incredibly thick.  But when I saw e-mails from him, they were decidedly eloquent.  First time I was like, "Holy crap, did *he* write this?"

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I’m not sure I agree with that.

If you read Shakespeare, you’d notice how much the English language has changed in 500 years.  It's an evolving language, which evolves - I don’t believe there is a wrong or right way to speak it.

English isn't the only language which evolves.  They all do.  Actually, only 'living' languages continue to evolve.  Languages such as Latin do not.

And yes, there is a right and wrong way to speak it.  Or rather, more right or more wrong.

If there were no right or wrong way to speak English, then the speaker could be uttering Mandarin, and by your definition, the speaker would be speaking English.

One classic phrase to consider:  "The iggle squiggs trazed wombly through the harlish goop."  When the author (Lewis Carroll, I believe) originally wrote this, he deliberately intended it to be nonsense, leveraging simple clues such as 'the', 'through' and English word endings.  At the time, not even 'goop' was meaningful, although it has acquired its meaning since then.

Here's another classic to ponder:  "Colourless green ideas **82** furiously."  Every word is clearly English, yes?  And each word is being used with proper grammar.  However, the *semantics* of the sentence are what throws a wrench into it.

So which dialect of English should we use as the benchmark for all dialects of English?  Should we choose one which is poorly documented, or not documented at all?  Should we choose one which is evolvoing so quickly, that catchy new words today (eg, 'cronk') get washed away by the sands of time more quickly than more established words.  Or should we choose a dialect where the verb "to be" is disappearing?

Yes, it's cute and cliquey to invent special-purpose words which are just used among you and your friends.  Been there, done that.  But I certainly wouldn't expect to be using those words with anyone who doesn't know me or my friends.

Language evolves.  Nobody can stop that.  Cultures merge, language bleed over into each other.  But standards are helpful.  Without standards, the Internet wouldn't have had the explosive growth that it did.  It would be a little difficult to assemble cars if people didn't care whether you used a metric bolt with a metric nut while assembling a car motor, then using a metric bolt with an Imperial nut on the next motor.  Hell, why use bolts at all?  Just jam a handful of paper clips in there, that'll be good enough, right?

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Shakespeare spoke and wrote in midlands dialect, 'Brummie' to those in the know (try it! Every speech in Shakespeare scans if said in a Birmingham accent). This was before Johnson, Webster and the other encyclopedists(sp?) systematised London and Philadelphia English as 'Standard English' in the 18th century.

See?  More stuff about English that I didn't know.  

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Right or wrong way to speak English at present? Given that English is the international language of communication, looked at on a purely pragmatic level:

Clarity of pronunciation and regularity of grammatical formation maximises the number of people who can understand you, therefore = good.
Slang and dialect, although colourful and evocative, excludes those not familiar with its use and context, therefore = bad.

Standard English (whatever accent you speak it with) is the *right* way to speak English to ensure maximum diffusion of your message through the English-speaking populace.

Bravo, Smiley!    I bask in the light of your linguistic luminescence.  

English is the international language of aviation.  There was a fiasco many years ago (I want to say in the 1970's, but don't quote me) when a French-speaking pilot from Quebec took to the skies in his private plane.  I don't recall where he flew to, but the air traffic controllers were only speaking English, didn't know a word of French.  It got a little hairy there for a while, to say the least.

I suspect (I could be wrong, mind you) that if someone who managed to get his pilot's license took to the skies only capable of speaking his local mumblespeak, I suspect the reaction from whatever air traffic controllers he ended up trying to have a dialogue with could end up being equally controversial.  Unless, by a wild coincidence, the air traffic controller just happened to be from the same home town.  Crisis averted, although there would no doubt be at least one person getting a stern talking to by the appropriate officials.  Or worse.

[Demolition_Man]

 

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 Didn't we have a huge and very funny thread like this not too long ago... called Things that I Hate or something like that?

 yup

I don't think anyone has linked to it yet.

[Hiram]

Take the word Video – a new word.  Go to France and ask for a Video, they’ll know what you mean.

What about colloquialisms and regional dialects – do they not constitute correct usage?

What about contractions – I’ve, I’ll, I’m – are these not technically incorrect?

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From Wikipedia

English is a West Germanic language that originated from languages brought to Britain during the first half of the first millennium by Germanic settlers from various parts of north-west Germany.

The original Germanic language was subsequently influenced by two successive waves of invasion. The first was by speakers of languages in the Scandinavian branch of the Germanic family, who colonised parts of Britain in the eighth and ninth centuries. The second wave was of the Normans in the 11th century, who spoke a variety of French.

These two invasions caused English to become highly 'creolised'; creolisation arises from the cohabitation of speakers of different languages, who develop a hybrid tongue for basic communication.

Cohabitation with the Scandinavians resulted in a significant grammatical simplification and lexical enrichment of the Anglo-Friesian core of English; the later Norman occupation led to the grafting onto that Germanic core a more elaborate layer of words from the Romance branch of European languages; this new layer entered English through use in the courts and government. Thus, English developed into a 'borrowing' language of considerable suppleness and huge vocabulary.

[doggo]

 

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Take the word Video – a new word. Go to France and ask for a Video, they’ll know what you mean.

"A video, eh? Nudge, nudge, know what I mean? Say no more!"

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What about colloquialisms and regional dialects – do they not constitute correct usage?

What about contractions – I’ve, I’ll, I’m – are these not technically incorrect?

They would be incorrect in a formal report, essay or article, where their use would make the reader feel uncomfortable.

In everyday speech, colloquialisms and regional dialects can lend vividness, although this does not imply that today's colloquialisms will become a permanent part of the language.

If I say (ironically), "Ey oop. there's trooble at t'mill," people will know that whatever the trouble is, it is of a trivial nature. (It is probably nothing worse than "handbags at five paces".) If there is a lady present, I will expect her to clutch my arm and cry, "Daddy, the men! They're coming up the drive!"

Contractions are part of everyday speech. Those who go out of their way to avoid using them tend to be pompous politicians and men of affairs who love the sound of their own voices.

[MasterDragonfly]

Take the word 'taxi'.  As far as I know, this word is the same word (complete with the same spelling and meaning) across more languages than any other word.  But the social aspect it describes (a car and driver for rent for a relatively short period of time) is just as widespread, if not moreso.  In effect, these languages have 'standardized' on the word 'taxi' to describe this mode of transportation.

The word 'computer' is fairly widespread across multiple languages.  But the French decided to rigidly stick with "l'ordinateur".  Puzzling, but that's the way it is.

We could keep coming up with examples and counterexamples of words.  But, words are words, grammar is a whole 'nother kettle of fish.  Then there's diglossia.

Fun stuff.

[gOOber]

   Hey, "no problem". I`m not interested in your problems but you`re welcome. Why don`t people say "you`re welcome" any more?