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Zorro

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Re: The Bundy Ranch/Ruby Ridge
« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2014, 05:55:40 PM »
Wikipedia is in itself not a very reliable source, but then neither is my references either.

I actually do appreciate the links because making statements without references is just blowing gas.

As in my own about the Kent State issue.

The federal government as well as state governments have never been squeaky clean.

What happened in Nevada is also happening in New Mexico and Colorado and will probably happen in other states too.

As I originally stated this is only the beginning and no matter how anyone feels about what a particular person is accused of they have rights.

Until they are convicted in a court of law they are innocent until proven guilty.

This goes for people like Mr Bundy and now other folks who are finding themselves in just about identical situations.

Even the people who I personally feel are as corrupt as Al Capone are innocent until proven guilty.

That is how the justice system in this country works even with all of it's flaws, it is the best there is.
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Zorro

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Re: The Bundy Ranch/Ruby Ridge
« Reply #16 on: April 15, 2014, 06:08:18 PM »
Sometimes the obvious needs to be explained, then.

Bundy started grazing his cattle on land which has been U.S. federal land since 1849*, and twenty years after Ronald Hussein Reagan ordered an end to unpaid grazing rights.


Why are you giving Ronald Reagan President Obama's middle name (Hussein)?
« Last Edit: April 15, 2014, 06:10:04 PM by Zorro »
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pedonbio

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Re: The Bundy Ranch/Ruby Ridge
« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2014, 06:24:31 PM »
Sometimes the obvious needs to be explained, then.

Bundy started grazing his cattle on land which has been U.S. federal land since 1849*, and twenty years after Ronald Hussein Reagan ordered an end to unpaid grazing rights.


Why are you giving Ronald Reagan President Obama's middle name (Hussein)?

Because it amuses me. The various rwnj regularly blame President Obama for things that President Reagan did. Including the Bundy crap.
Someday, chi1dren, this entire fuck-up will be yours.

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CarlTL

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Re: The Bundy Ranch/Ruby Ridge
« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2014, 06:54:55 PM »
Wikipedia is in itself not a very reliable source, but then neither is my references either.

I actually do appreciate the links because making statements without references is just blowing gas.

As in my own about the Kent State issue.

The federal government as well as state governments have never been squeaky clean.

What happened in Nevada is also happening in New Mexico and Colorado and will probably happen in other states too.

As I originally stated this is only the beginning and no matter how anyone feels about what a particular person is accused of they have rights.

Until they are convicted in a court of law they are innocent until proven guilty.

This goes for people like Mr Bundy and now other folks who are finding themselves in just about identical situations.

Even the people who I personally feel are as corrupt as Al Capone are innocent until proven guilty.

That is how the justice system in this country works even with all of it's flaws, it is the best there is.

Bundy HAD his day in court and lost. He owes some twenty years of back grazing fees plus interest to the Bureau of Land Management (he stopped paying them in 1993)

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rtpoe

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Re: The Bundy Ranch/Ruby Ridge
« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2014, 10:37:51 PM »
So, let me get this straight.

Mr. Bundy is not being evicted or anything like that; the BLM is simply insisting that he pay the required fees for his personal use (for personal gain) of public lands? And he had his "day in court", and lost?

In all fairness, I can't see where he has a leg to stand on.

There are better reasons than this to rail against the overreach of not just the Federal government, but state and local governments as well. I refer to abuse of eminent domain powers (see Kelo v. City of New London, 545 U.S. 469 (2005) for a particularly egregious example) or civil forfeiture laws (where police can seize personal property if they have reason to believe it was involved in a crime - without having to arrest or even charge anyone with a crime).

One should not just pick a fight that one can win, one should also pick a fight that's worth winning. I can't tell how the situation with Mr. Bundy will turn out, but I don't think his fight is one worth supporting.
rtpoe

Well, it's a marvelous night for a Moondance
With the stars up above in your eyes
A fantabulous night to make romance
'Neath the cover of October skies
And all the leaves on the trees are falling
To the sound of the breezes that blow...

Van Morrison, Moondance

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pedonbio

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Re: The Bundy Ranch/Ruby Ridge
« Reply #20 on: April 16, 2014, 01:00:48 AM »

One should not just pick a fight that one can win, one should also pick a fight that's worth winning. I can't tell how the situation with Mr. Bundy will turn out, but I don't think his fight is one worth supporting.

Ah, rtpoe, a statement after my own heart! I have no idea what plans the BLM may have, but I do know that a judgment (like for unpaid grazing fees) acts as a lien and must be paid before real property can be transferred, including by inheritance. And in Nevada I believe it accrues 12% annual interest.
Someday, chi1dren, this entire fuck-up will be yours.

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Zorro

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Re: The Bundy Ranch/Ruby Ridge
« Reply #21 on: April 16, 2014, 10:00:54 AM »
;D
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TheZookie007

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Re: The Bundy Ranch/Ruby Ridge
« Reply #22 on: April 16, 2014, 02:48:39 PM »
Wikipedia is in itself not a very reliable source

Actually, there are have been a number of studies out there that show that Wikipedia is about as accurate as the Encyclopedia Britannica, on most things. I think the main demerit of Wikipedia is its insistence upon sources that Wikipedians cite being online. If you cite a source that is not available online, there's sure to be some dickish Wikipedian who wants to clamp down on you. And do not get me started on their rendering all articles about big-boob models "irrelevant".

-- TheZookie "yes, I'm bitter...so what??" 007
AOC, HC, TW, BO, KH: FU. FUATH. 100x.

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pedonbio

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Re: The Bundy Ranch/Ruby Ridge
« Reply #23 on: April 16, 2014, 05:23:01 PM »
Actually, there are have been a number of studies out there that show that Wikipedia is about as accurate as the Encyclopedia Britannica, on most things. I think the main demerit of Wikipedia is its insistence upon sources that Wikipedians cite being online. If you cite a source that is not available online, there's sure to be some dickish Wikipedian who wants to clamp down on you. And do not get me started on their rendering all articles about big-boob models "irrelevant".

-- TheZookie "yes, I'm bitter...so what??" 007

Repeated for truth. Perhaps I had particularly intellectual teachers, but around the fourth grade my teacher explained the difference between primary and secondary sources, newspapers of record, and what-not, including the admonition that encyclopedias were a good place to start, but all were secondary, a place to see who the players were and what the game was.

I have one of the few BS degrees in history; only a few universities confer them, but they are intended for people who expect to work with primary sources of dubious validity. While I elected to work elsewhere, I have a strong aversion to people who demand links, knowing how unreliable most "news" sites are. By comparison, Wikipedia is a monument of reliability.

And it's free.

And here's another picture of that Muslim  Kenyan socialist tyrant:
« Last Edit: April 16, 2014, 05:26:02 PM by pedonbio »
Someday, chi1dren, this entire fuck-up will be yours.


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rtpoe

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Re: The Bundy Ranch/Ruby Ridge
« Reply #25 on: April 16, 2014, 10:34:20 PM »
Quote
The BLM and adjoining agencies in this situation are to commended for their prudence and immense restraint shown in the face of outright lawlessness masked as patriotism.

At the standoff in the wash, the true colors of these people was shown when they used for strategical advantage, the presence of women and children while threatening an armed response to the law.

The stand-down was necessary to prevent bloodshed, but it must be recognized that if Bundy and a multitude of his supporters, militia friends, and even family members who broke the law, are allowed to go unpunished, anarchy will follow. Other groups, emboldened by the appearance of **77** a stand-down, will only continue to gain momentum. And furthermore, law enforcement as a whole will be rendered impotent as average people with disputes with current laws begin to wonder if they too can call a militia in to force the police to leave them alone.

In the case of Bundy and the Gold Butte designations, the government did it right. They continued to do it right in the face of the lawless behavior of a rancher and his militia henchmen. They earned and deserve our loyalty.

Dallas Hyland, St George (UT) News, 4/13/14

Even though I live far away from the are in question, and in my entire life have spent less than a month in Nevada, I find that I am still involved in this dispute.

The Bureau of Land Management (BLM) is a federal agency that oversees public lands - those lands that do not belong to any private individual or corporation, state or local government, and are not set aside for other uses (e.g. National Parks). Their basic job is to see that the land is used fairly, so that no single party can derive an unfair benefit from those lands. Mr. Bundy wants to graze his cattle on a portion of that public land, without paying the appropriate fees. Such fees are necessary to both help prevent damage through overgrazing and to balance out the ranchers' profit from that grazing.

As a member of the Public (like every other US citizen who frequents this site), I have a claim to that land. Through our elected officials, we have allowed the delegation of the management of that land to the BLM, since none of us could possibly begin to handle that obligation on our own.

Mr. Bundy isn't grazing his cattle on some "abandoned" land. It's my land. If you are a US citizen, it's your land, too.

I want that asshole off my land!

----

One more thing....

Mr. Bundy may be a greedy, selfish, nutcase, but one of the fundamental things behind his dispute is older than our country itself. Not the Red State - Blue State divide, but the Jeffersonian - Hamiltonian divide.

Hamiltonians (of which I consider myself to be one) favor a strong central/federal government. Not only can such a government provide "economies of scale" when it comes to things like national defense and basic standards for laws and commerce, but it can also help hold together a widely diverse population (see the Balkans for an excellent example) with a multitude of divergent interests. The Jeffersonians feel that in order to have such a strong central government, individuals give up far too much in the way of individual liberties.

Another way of looking at it is that the Hamiltonians don't trust individuals to look out for the best interests of society as a whole; the Jeffersonians don't trust the government to do so.

This is a debate that has gone on for centuries, and will continue for centuries more. Certainly we're not going to come up with any solutions here.
rtpoe

Well, it's a marvelous night for a Moondance
With the stars up above in your eyes
A fantabulous night to make romance
'Neath the cover of October skies
And all the leaves on the trees are falling
To the sound of the breezes that blow...

Van Morrison, Moondance

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pedonbio

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Re: The Bundy Ranch/Ruby Ridge
« Reply #26 on: April 17, 2014, 02:09:29 AM »


As a member of the Public (like every other US citizen who frequents this site), I have a claim to that land. Through our elected officials, we have allowed the delegation of the management of that land to the BLM, since none of us could possibly begin to handle that obligation on our own.

Mr. Bundy isn't grazing his cattle on some "abandoned" land. It's my land. If you are a US citizen, it's your land, too.

I want that asshole off my land!

----


Thank you, rtpoe! Somebody else sees what I meant!
Someday, chi1dren, this entire fuck-up will be yours.

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Zorro

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Re: The Bundy Ranch/Ruby Ridge
« Reply #27 on: April 17, 2014, 05:55:47 AM »
 ;D
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TheZookie007

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Re: The Bundy Ranch/Ruby Ridge
« Reply #28 on: April 17, 2014, 07:46:35 PM »
As funny as that cartoon is, Zorro (and I did smile at it, because it is funny) -- it also is simply untrue. As pedonbio and rtpoe have shown above, the fact of the matter is Mr. Bundy is trespassing on my land (and your land, from Cal-i-forn-ia, to the New York Is-land), hasn't paid for it, and is violating a law put in place not by current Pres. Obama, but by past Pres. Reagan.

On this issue, he is wrong. He should pay up, and clear out.

Also, this issue has zero to do with undocumented immigrants to this country -- unless you want to count Mr. Bundy's ancestors.

Pal says: it's also untrue on an entirely separate level: the cartoon implies that undocumented immigrants can and do enter the US with impunity (hence the "joke" ...that the rancher would be better off if he were an immigrant). Unless a person's been hiding under a rock for the past six years, everyone knows that illegal immigration is way down vs. prior administrations and deportations are way up (so much so, the current administration is getting flack from the left about it). I know Fox would have it's viewers think otherwise (that illegal entry is up under Obama, but that's simply fiction and not supported by an iota of fact).
« Last Edit: April 18, 2014, 05:45:24 PM by TheZookie007 »
AOC, HC, TW, BO, KH: FU. FUATH. 100x.

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Zorro

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Re: The Bundy Ranch/Ruby Ridge
« Reply #29 on: April 17, 2014, 09:32:58 PM »
It has become my opinion that some folks rather imply that I may be ignorant and/or lacking intelligence.

Some folks use sarcastic innuendos and feel it solidifies their statements.

I prefer to use humor because it brings pleasant and happy thoughts and/or it is my way of working on not to become upset.

Whether the cartoons are true or not they are someone else's thoughts and feelings that may agree with mine or it is just entertainment to ease hostility.

p.s. I have purposely not mentioned any user names because that in itself may initiate tension.

There will be more cartoons and irrelevant pictures.
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